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{{talkarchivenav}}

== Infobox Template ==

I came across the infobox topic via RfC a few weeks ago. Since that time I've learned there are a lot of strong opinions about them. I understand this was a very contentious topic a decade ago. Now that infoboxes have been around so long it appears that many of these RfCs are going to end in infoboxes being added on articles since so many editors find them valuable. The problem with that is the very real issue of scope creep. Other projects have controlled this by agreeing to an infobox template. This helps control what's included in the infobox. I don't pretend to be an expert on what's important to a composer's infobox bio, but I would highly recommend that this project take an infobox template under consideration. Thanks! [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 14:16, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

:: Agreed 1,000%. People expect Wikipedia articles on people to have an infobox to easily glean e.g. age, place of birth, etc. Not having them for composers because of a discussion twelve years ago is the worst sort of precedent. [[User:DividedFrame|Brad]] ([[User talk:DividedFrame|talk]]) 22:07, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
:Not really sure what you'e talking about. {{tl|Infobox classical composer}} has existed for 20 years and evidently not lessened any disputes. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 23:40, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

== [[Talk:Charles-Valentin_Alkan#RfC:_Alkan_and_Masarnau|RfC: Alkan/Masarnau]] ==

Editors' comments are requested [[Talk:Charles-Valentin_Alkan#RfC:_Alkan_and_Masarnau|here]] on a matter of appropriateness of quotation/citation. [[User:Smerus|Smerus]] ([[User talk:Smerus|talk]]) 09:52, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

== [[Talk:Franz_Schubert#Unsinnsgesellschaft|RfC Schubert/Unsinnsgesellschaft]] ==

Editors are invited to comment [[Talk:Franz_Schubert#Unsinnsgesellschaft|here]] on an asserted link of Schubert with the 'Unsinngesellschaft' society . [[User:Smerus|Smerus]] ([[User talk:Smerus|talk]]) 10:00, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

== Charles Turner ==

[[Draft:Charles Turner (American composer)]] was tagged as unreferenced, then as unnotable. I've satisfied my own curiousity about the dedicatee of Barber's ''Souvenirs'' and Auden's ''Ballad of Barnaby'' and hope someone else might want to rescue this article. [[User:Sparafucil|Sparafucil]] ([[User talk:Sparafucil|talk]]) 03:47, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

== Listing of [[Wagner]] at [[Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2023_February_9#Wagner|WP:Redirects for discussion]]==
Comments invited.--[[User:Smerus|Smerus]] ([[User talk:Smerus|talk]]) 22:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

== Project-independent quality assessments ==

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at [[Wikipedia:Content assessment]], but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent [[WP:Village pump (proposals)/Archive_198#Project-independent_quality_assessments|Village pump proposal]] was approved and has been implemented to add a {{para|class}} parameter to {{tl|WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{tl|WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{tl|WPBannerMeta}} a new {{para|QUALITY_CRITERIA|custom}} parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. [[User:Aymatth2|Aymatth2]] ([[User talk:Aymatth2|talk]]) 13:45, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

== Overhaul of [[List of compositions by Robert Schumann|list of Schumann's works]] ==

I have left a comment on the [[Talk:List of compositions by Robert Schumann#Overhaul required|talk page]] with suggestions. Would be interested to hear thoughts. [[User:SaryaniPaschtorr|SaryaniPaschtorr]] ([[User talk:SaryaniPaschtorr|talk]]) 18:31, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

== [[Music editor]] ==

Surprisingly, we didn't have an article on the occupation of music editor and this was a redirect to [[music sequencer]]. I just knocked off a quick article. If anyone cares to expand, have at it.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 18:08, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

:Good thinking! I've just tweaked it a bit and linked it in some articles. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 19:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

== Corelli move discussion ==

Project members may be interested in [[Talk:Corelli#Requested move 13 August 2023|this move discussion]]. – '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 18:31, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

== RFC: Infobox discussion ==

Some of composers have an infobox by using {{tlx|Infobox person}} or {{tlx|Infobox classical composer}} from previous discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC]]. Following these multiple consensuses via RfC who has or don't have an infobox:

* [[Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 6#Infobox]]
* [[Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach/Archive 10#Infobox proposal]]
* [[Talk:Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky/Archive 5#RFC regarding the addition of an infobox]]
* [[Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/Archive 16#Mozart Infobox RFC]]
* [[Talk:Richard Wagner#Wagner infobox rfc]]
* [[Talk:Dmitri Shostakovich#RfC: Infobox]]
[[Special:Contributions/2001:4451:8282:7C00:E4DA:4FE7:6253:3DD2|2001:4451:8282:7C00:E4DA:4FE7:6253:3DD2]] ([[User talk:2001:4451:8282:7C00:E4DA:4FE7:6253:3DD2|talk]]) 11:08, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

===Discussion===
What's the purpose of this RfC? What infobox template to use?   [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 13:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] removed the tag for the RFC as not valid. I rolled that back, can the IP user who started this RFC explain the purpose of this RFC? If not, they should withdraw this, or if they're unresponsive it would be fine to remove the tag. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 01:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

::The tag shouldn't be restored unless and until the RfC is valid. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:12, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
:::You should have posed a question here or attempted to reach the IP editor before doing something like that. [[User:Nemov|Nemov]] ([[User talk:Nemov|talk]]) 01:14, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

::::No, the IP should have come up with a valid RfC. Without that, the tag is unhelpful. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:16, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jessie Baetz]] ==

Comments would be appreciated. All opinions welcome.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 15:55, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

==[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rostom Aramovic Alagian]]==
This composer needs sourcing to prove notability. The unsourced article makes some encyclopedic claims and could potentially be worth saving if sources can be located.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 19:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
: All I found is two recordings, on Discogs and elsewhere. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 20:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

==Nationality of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart at AfD==
The article [[Nationality of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]] is listed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nationality of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart]]. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 03:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

== Katherine Hoover ==

Please review Katherine Hoover article's assessment and advise improvements. This Edit required to make a positive request. [[User:AjAirFlex|AjAirFlex]] ([[User talk:AjAirFlex|talk]]) 04:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

== Request for input ==

There is a current discussion over the appropriateness of a particular quote about [[Samuel Barber]] at [[Talk:Samuel Barber#Most celebrated composer?]]. The quote in question was written by [[Donal Henahan]] in ''[[The New York Times]]''. This is the quote and source: "Probably no other American composer has ever enjoyed such early, such persistent and such long-lasting acclaim." {{cite news|url=https://www.nytimes.com/1981/01/24/obituaries/samuel-barber-composer-dead-twice-winner-of-pulitzer-prize.html?scp=5&sq=%22Samuel+Barber%22&st=nyt|title=Samuel Barber, Composer, Dead: Twice Winner of Pulitzer Prize|work=[[The New York Times]]|date=January 24, 1981|author=Donal Henahan|author-link=Donal Henahan}} The quote was removed from the lead of the article here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Samuel_Barber&diff=1186082202&oldid=1186078777] Please comment at the discussion at: [[Talk:Samuel Barber#Most celebrated composer?]]. All opinions are welcome.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 20:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

== Discussion at [[Johann Christian Bach]] ==
[[File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg|25px|link=|alt=]]&nbsp;You are invited to join the discussion at [[Talk:Johann_Christian_Bach#Infobox_proposal]], which is within the scope of this WikiProject.  [[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 01:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)<!--Template:WikiProject please see-->

== Good article reassessment for [[Guto Puw]] ==
[[Guto Puw]] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the [[Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Guto Puw/1|reassessment page]]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. [[User:Spinixster|<span style="color: #b22e3e; font-family: Elephant; ">Spinixster</span>]] [[User talk:Spinixster|<span style="font-family: Franklin Gothic Medium Cond; color: #b22e3e; font-size: 10pt;">''(chat!)''</span>]] 07:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

== Anton Webern ==

I made a small change to [[Anton Webern]] a while ago and have it on my watchlist.  I have since watched a single editor do major work on that page and you may want to look at it to reassess it.  Looks quite good to me!  --John ([[User:Jwy]]/[[User talk:Jwy|talk]]) 21:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

:Montensem has indeed been doing great work on the article. It is currently rated "B"; any higher rating (GA or FA) and it would have to be entered into [[WP:GAN]] or [[WP:FAC]] and go through the process at either venue. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 23:14, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

== Tim Simonec ==

FYI.  I just created this article ([[Tim Simonec]]).  It could use some work.  --[[User:David Tornheim|David Tornheim]] ([[User talk:David Tornheim|talk]]) 22:14, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

== Sir [[Arnold Bax]] ==

Now that his copyrights have expired, are there any free-licence recordings of his music which we can upload to the Commons? His category is empty so far. [[User:Robin S. Taylor|Robin S. Taylor]] ([[User talk:Robin S. Taylor|talk]]) 13:31, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
:Only for works {{em|recorded by artists}} who have been dead for 70 years. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 13:01, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
[[File:This Is My Father's World.ogg|thumb|Instrumental digital recording of ''This Is My Father's World'']]
Recently I made a digital recording of [[This Is My Father's World|this hymn]], and considered trying that with some of Bax's work (having found the sheet music on archive.org) but the length and notational complexity were rather too great. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Robin S. Taylor|Robin S. Taylor]] ([[User talk:Robin S. Taylor#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Robin S. Taylor|contribs]]) 06:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)</small>

==Help requested==
I would be happy to have help with:
*[[Draft:T. Mayo Geary]]
*[[Draft:Jack Mills (music publisher)]] [[User:FloridaArmy|FloridaArmy]] ([[User talk:FloridaArmy|talk]]) 21:49, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

:@[[User:FloridaArmy|FloridaArmy]], what are you looking for help with? Really, you need 2–3 more secondary reliable sources for each person, because you need to establish [[WP:Notability]]. These sources should (ideally) be thing which are focused on the subject.
:For Jack Mills, something like this [https://www.nytimes.com/1979/03/26/archives/jack-mills-87-a-music-publisher-introduced-many-popular-songs-two.html NYT obit], to 1–2 others. You may want to look for encyclopedia entries focused on the people, or search their names on Google Books. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 22:54, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
:::[[User:Aza24]] that's what I need help with, sources like those. [[User:FloridaArmy|FloridaArmy]] ([[User talk:FloridaArmy|talk]]) 23:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
::::Try checking some sources in the [[Irving Mills]] article. There's also [https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ragtime/zpnzDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Jack+Mills,+Music+Publisher&pg=PT166&printsec=frontcover this]. You might also add this [https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Mills,_Jack IMSLP] link to the external links section
::::For T. Mayo Geary its looking a bit trickier; I'm not seeing so many sources available online. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 06:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

== Help Request ==

Looking for someone to review this page and publish changes.
[[Draft:Rhyuhn Green|Draft:Rhyuhn Green]] [[User:Composer232|Composer232]] ([[User talk:Composer232|talk]]) 22:51, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

:Hi there {{ping|Composer232}}, I'm not formally reviewing the page, but here are some tips:
:* In general, this article will probably not be accepted in its current state. You need to establish [[WP:NOTABILITY]], with 2–3 reliable secondary sources with in-depth coverage on the subject. Passing mentions (articles where he is not the main focus), will not suffice.
:Other than this, here are some formatting tips:
:* The article should be generally chronological; education section before music
:** Something like "Carnegie Hall debut in Weill Recital Hall at age 12" should be earlier in the text.
:* Birth years/dates need sources, if you don't have a source for it, don't include it
:* BroadwayWorld.com and Instagram are not reliable sources (see [[WP:RS]]) and should be removed or switched out
:* References always come after punctuation, and there are never spaces before references, only after.
:* All of these awards don't really belong in the [[WP:LEAD]], put them in there own section. The lead is to summarize information below—it is not where we include new information. 
:* You never need 6 sources for a single line, really anything more than 2–3 is pushing it.
:'''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 01:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

== [[Draft:Camara Kambon|Camara Kambon]] draft - open for feedback ==

Hi there, this article about an American film composer and songwriter is waiting review since a couple of months back. It has been marked with GA status. Please advice if there is anything that needs improvement, or if I should just be patient and wait.

[[Draft:Camara Kambon]] [[User:AnamSoul|AnamSoul]] ([[User talk:AnamSoul|talk]]) 16:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

== [[:Dmitri Shostakovich]] has an [[WP:RFC|RfC]]==

<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>'''[[:Dmitri Shostakovich]]''' has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the '''[[Talk:Dmitri Shostakovich#RfC: Inclusion of Shostakovich's marriages in the infobox|discussion page]]'''.<!-- Template:Rfc notice--> Thank you. —[[User:CurryTime7-24|CurryTime7-24]] ([[User talk:CurryTime7-24|talk]]) 19:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

== Infoboxes ==

I notice a great many composers now have infoboxes. I think this is a good thing as long as the composer infobox is used:
{{infobox composer
|image          = Kenneth Leighton, 1981.jpg
|caption        = Joe Blogs in 1981
|name           = Joe Blogs
|birth_date     = {{Birth date|1944|04|12}}
|birth_place    = [[Inverness]], Scotland
|death_date     = {{Death date and age|2004|01|01|1944|04|12}}
|death_place    = [[Elgin, Scotland]]
|occupation     = Composer, Double Bassist, Professor of music
|list_of_works  = [[Joe Bloggs#Works|Works]]
|notable_family = [[Jane Doe]]
|signature      = JohnHancocksSignature.svg
}}. 
This avoids the situation in [[Schostakovich]] where the box became too big. Have the composer's group now accepted the need for a simple infobox with consensus on the talk page? I have proposed infoboxes for [[Kenneth Leighton]] and [[Sofia Gubaidulina]] and may propose more as I find them missing. Please comment on the talk pages. I'll let you know as I propose them and will keep you updated. —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  09:02, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

:One important composer where an infobox is being proposed is [[Haydn]]... Perhaps that debate should be resolved first? —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  09:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
::I have also suggested we have a debate at [[Mahler]] —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  20:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
:I've added infoboxes to [[Kenneth Leighton]] and [[Sofia Gubaidulina]] per [[WP:BRD]] —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  00:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

== Hello-o-o-o-o ==

Am I talking to an empty room? It is a shame if the group is dead. —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  07:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
:An non-member's observation: You wrote above {{tq|....Haydn. Perhaps that debate should be resolved first?}} - 4 June (sorry, late sig) - [[User:Davidships|Davidships]] ([[User talk:Davidships|talk]]) 10:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
::Hello anonymous! We can multitask here at Wikipedia! Seriously, though, this infobox thing is a minefield. Would you like to help?—<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  14:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
::Iadmc, I don't know what you expect people to do. Some of the articles you're proposing IBs be added to are in an abysmal state. Time would be much better spent adding content to them. In some ways, IB are purely decorative, and don't actually improve the article's content.
::In any case (since you will just ignore the above), WikiProject Classical music is typically more active. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 03:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Aza24|Aza24]]: I intend to work on the articles [[Kenneth Leighton]] and [[Sofia Gubaidulina]]. The boxes are just a preliminary step. I don't really expect people to do anything but constructive comments are always helpful! Surprisingly, [[Haydn]] needs some work, too; surprisingly, considering the quality of the editors in the old Haydn and Mozart taskforce. I'm not all just about infoboxes, it's just that I think they are going to be placed in all person articles eventually: might as well get it "right" now with a box people can accept. Finally, this project used to be buzzing. It's a shame to see it die. I'll pop over to [[WP:CM]] and see what is happening there. Thanks for the comments —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  04:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
::::Well, welcome back to the site! The Haydn and Mozart task force is long gone, and our standards for composer articles have increased immensely. Thus, some major composers such as Haydn, Mozart, Vivaldi, Puccini, Bartok and to some extent Beethoven have very poor articles, in comparison to the FA/GAs we now have.
::::You'll be happy to hear that [[WP:CM]] is fairly active, but I wouldn't think of the Composers project as dead by any means. Most people at CM are working on composer articles, that's just where they happen to meet now. I don't know when you were last particularly active, but WikiProjects have ''heavily'' decreased in importance. Only a handful—Military, video games, hurricanes, paleontology, come to mind—are especially active. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 04:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::Thanks! As long as collaboration is still key, projects are not really important except as places to make announcements. They became talking/bashing shops really with acrimonious arguments flying round. Good riddence! Also, they were cliques where an opinion was pushed on people: e.g. "infoboxes are evil". Perhaps WP has matured somewhat since then; I hope so! Anyway, I look forward to working with you —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  05:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::I think the infoboxes debate is still going on—see for example [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes#RfC:_Change_INFOBOXUSE_to_recommend_the_use_of_infoboxes|this recent RfC]]. [[User:AirshipJungleman29|&#126;~ AirshipJungleman29]] ([[User talk:AirshipJungleman29|talk]]) 11:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Oh, that debate will never die. Some are completely enamoured of them, others despise them with a passion. I only include them where there is consensus—or else no opposition—and an image with some useful info in the caption. I do use [[WP:BRD]] to add them where it seems unlikely there will be no opposition; otherwise, I ask. —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  13:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:AirshipJungleman29|AirshipJungleman29]] hello, btw! —<span style="background-color: #EAE6FF">[[User:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">&nbsp;Iadmc</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Iadmc|<span style="color: black">♫</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Iadmc|<span style="color: #0247FE">talk&nbsp;</span>]]</sup></span>  13:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

== Could someone help out with the [[Johannes Brahms|Brahms]] page? ==

Even after I fixed many of the phrases and made them less argumentative, there's more that needs to be rephrased (especially under the Reception section), as well as citations (especially in the introduction and Music section). I can't do all this by myself, so could somebody lend out a helping hand? Thanks. [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 01:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

== Request for Feedback on Draft:Shuying Li ==

Hello! I have been working on a draft article for composer Shuying Li and would greatly appreciate any feedback or contributions from fellow editors. Here is the link to the draft: [Draft:Shuying Li](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Shuying_Li). Thank you in advance for your help! [[User:LuminousPathGlimmer|LuminousPathGlimmer]] ([[User talk:LuminousPathGlimmer|talk]]) 19:28, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

== Raising [[Beethoven]]'s article raiting ==

The article seems to be good enough to be a [[Wikipedia:Good article nominations|good article]], or even a [[Wikipedia:Featured article criteria|featured article]], however this requires a process which has to involve someone who contributed enough to the article (which isn't me), meaning I can't request a nomination for this. However, we can together decide whether to make this an A - class (which hopefully will make it easier to get a higher rating in the future).  Can we get a consensus that this article should be raised from B class to A class? [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 14:34, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

:It would need a completely new music and legacy section—which sounds far away from good or featured status. Same with Brahms, which you seem to have been eyeing recently. I understand article ratings can be exciting (as is improving Wikipedia!), but you need to take a closer look at the articles you have in mind.
:Notice how the FA [[Maurice Ravel]] discusses each of the composers major genres one by one in the music section; and see how [[Josquin]] has an extensive section for his legacy. Both the Beethoven and Brahms articles would need music and legacy sections of similar scope/size. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 17:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

== Deciding on the leading image/portrait of [[Richard Strauss]] ==

We're trying to decide which is the best one to use. If you want to join the discussion, please see the talk page and look for the category named "Swapping his main portrait". Thank you. [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 22:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

== Helping out with [[Beethoven]]'s legacy section ==

Thank you @[[User:Aza24|Aza24]] for pointing this out. If I have time I'll work on it myself, and anyone who wants to help out with it to make it more like [[Josquin des Prez]]'s legacy section to is more than welcome to. Thank you. [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 08:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

:Update: I started to work on the legacy section at [[User:Wikieditor662/Beethoven sandbox]]. Any help or advice on how I could improve the article or what I should add is greatly appreciated. [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 15:04, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

== Good article reassessment for [[Lisa Hannigan]] ==
[[Lisa Hannigan]] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the [[Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Lisa Hannigan/1|reassessment page]]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 14:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

== Move discussion at [[Talk:Giacomo Benvenuti (composer)]] ==

Editors may wish to comment at this discussion. All opinions welcome.[[User:4meter4|4meter4]] ([[User talk:4meter4|talk]]) 15:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

== Requested move at [[Talk:Giacomo Benvenuti (composer)#Requested move 6 September 2024]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Giacomo Benvenuti (composer)#Requested move 6 September 2024]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. [[User talk:Reading Beans|<span style="color:#333">'''Reading Beans'''</span>]] 02:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

== Requested move at [[Talk:Kim Woo-jin#Requested move 13 September 2024]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Kim Woo-jin#Requested move 13 September 2024]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. [[User:98Tigerius|<span style="color:#FFBE98; text-shadow:0.1em 0.2em 0.1em #FFF8E7">'''98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:98Tigerius|<span style="color:#FFBE98; text-shadow:0.1em 0.2em 0.1em #FFF8E7">'''[𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺]'''</span>]]</sup> 07:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

==Assessing the prominence of a work of classical music==

Here is an afterthought I had, inspired by Agrestis's proposal.  

I've contributed to articles about very famous works ([[The Creation (Haydn)|Haydn's Creation]]) and rather obscure ones ([[Beim Auszug in das Feld]]). It often feels appropriate to clue the reader into how much the work is central to the body of Western classical music; something like "X is frequently performed and recorded." It's interesting to ponder how such claims can be given legitimate reference sources. Opera articles sometime use [https://www.operabase.com/en Operabase]. What else might help?  Presto? Page count in books of recommended recordings? Has this been discussed before (hints welcome)? [[User:Opus33|Opus33]] ([[User talk:Opus33|talk]]) 18:18, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

:Of course there's a bunch of pieces that get recorded frequently but not performed live, and (especially for more modern works) also happens somewhat the opposite. So just looking at recording numbers isn't great. [[User:Melodia|♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫]] ([[User talk:Melodia|talk]]) 05:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
:It is not very reliable historically (this cannot be overemphasized) and is extremely culturally, politically, and socially relative. This is a bigger problem than it may seem.
:There may be reliable sources for making such a claim in the literature, and then it would likely be somewhat defensible. But claims are just claims; they should be contextualized and preferably (where possible) much substantiated.
:General regard is probably already evident enough to the reader in the sheer bulk and tone of literature that has accumulated around some music. The small problem is that general regard is probably not so measurable or reliably quantifiable. [[User:MONTENSEM|MONTENSEM]] ([[User talk:MONTENSEM|talk]]) 06:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
:Maybe the "medium problem", which is not a problem at all, is the sheer diversity of means by which importance may be inferred and its variance assessed. [[User:MONTENSEM|MONTENSEM]] ([[User talk:MONTENSEM|talk]]) 06:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

== Film Music Reporter ==

I have started a discussion about the reliability of this website, which is widely used in articles that fall within the scope of this WikiProject, at [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Film Music Reporter]]. All thoughts are welcome. My hope is to come to a definitive consensus on the matter which can be recorded at [[WP:RS/PS]]. - [[User:Adamstom.97|adamstom97]] ([[User talk:Adamstom.97|talk]]) 09:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

== Tabulating and ranking lists of composers ==

I am going through the composer list pages and putting them all into tables (copying the basic template initiated on the Medieval list) and adding a 'rating' column to draw attention to the most important composers.

Needless to say. this is highly subjective. Doubtless the finer points of who should or should not be highlighted in this way will cause much discussion amongst those with greater knowledge than I, but it has at least started a process much requested on various talk pages. 

As a simple way to organise the sorting I used the number of recordings available for that composer on [[https://www.prestomusic.com Presto Music]]. Star ratings were then assigned on the simple divisions:
* {{rating|1}} less than 100 recordings
* {{rating|2}} between 100 and 1,000 recordings
* {{rating|3}} over 1,000 recordings

My reasoning is as follows: The number of recordings is a good indication of how significantly the composer is favoured by the musical community as a whole. If musicians go to the effort to record and release that piece then they must consider it worthwhile. Collectively they are thus passing judgement. This is therefore along the lines of an opinion poll of the global musical community, which is about as close as we can get to an objective answer to the question 'which composers are best?'. It also has the advantage of being verifiable and easily available.

It is worthwhile to have these ratings because it draws attention to those composers for readers of the list. Not every reader is an experienced musician or will know much about classical music so they may have no idea who the important composers in that era are. These lists have become very long and are overwhelming. Without the rating column they are really only of interest to those who care about articles on very minor composers. With the rating column they become of use to the general reader. 

In each case I have started a topic in the Talk page. [[User:Agrestis|Agrestis]] ([[User talk:Agrestis|talk]]) 05:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

:This is not how discussions work. For a major systemic change like this you really should have community approval. Simply making editors aware of the change is not enough—and splitting the conversation into 5 different threads is not helpful.
:This is a massive insertion of [[WP:Original research]]. Number of recordings does not indicate relevance/popularity/importance even a little bit. Recordings are an invention of the last a hundred years; important medieval musicians will never have as many recordings as Mozart/Beethoven etc, because those styles are simply not as popular as they were. Other composers who were hugely popular in their time may have lessened in popularity now, Jommelli and Franck for instance. This is simply not encyclopedic, you are essentially ranking composers!! – '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 21:35, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
: Also, there is a built in way to communicate who the important composers are... it's called [[WP:reliable sources]]... A lead can be written for each article (I already wrote one for [[List of medieval composers]]), pulling from the list's sources to communicate such information... – '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 21:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

::Concur with Aza24 here: if you'd like to create such tables for your own personal interest have at it, but this isn't something to replace mainspace lists. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 05:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
:Number of recordings may be defensible in principle. But Presto Music is not the best source for this, and there may not be a reliable one.
:Why is the star rating necessary? This broad line of reasoning does strike me as constituting OR. What is worse, the argument does not strike me as sound (for a variety of reasons). Musicians' role in recordings does not necessarily constitute an act of judgment as to some music's importance (they may even very well not like what they are recording). Record labels generally have some commercial interest, though not always.
:Wikipedia is not a classroom survey. It requires encyclopedic breadth and sufficient depth. There has been some discussion about how to select composers on the talk page for [[List of classical music composers by era]]. There is likely no way about it beyond some survey of surveys. That may or may not constitute OR, but it would involve an operation perhaps tantamount to synthesis to the extent that it selects only the composers common among them. Moreover, most surveys will acknowledge and apologize somewhere that their selection is inherently arbitrary. (A broader problem is that "the composer" as such is simply not a historical given, problematizing breadth. A more fundamental problem is that a selected list of composers organized by style periods and birthdates is not that informative or useful: it lacks depth.) [[User:MONTENSEM|MONTENSEM]] ([[User talk:MONTENSEM|talk]]) 05:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

*'''Probably not'''. Thoughts: (1) Aza24 and Nikkimaria are absolutely right; it's a no-no to do this without community support in advance. (2) Should it be done? I'm ambivalent -- the charts feed my curiosity, but it seems a little wrong-headed -- it's part of the ethos of classical music that mere popularity is not the ultimate credential (compare, for instance, [[Für Elise]] and the [[Grosse Fugue]]).  (3) If (as seems unlikely) there is community approval for this, I would suggest raw Presto numbers rather than a star system. The latter is too coarse, and puts (say) Offenbach and Donizetti on the same level as Chopin and Schumann.[[User:Opus33|Opus33]] ([[User talk:Opus33|talk]])

* The number of recordings is highly problematic, even if using a source like Presto Classical. First, it doesn't include many labels (Finlandia, for example ... in this sense, I have found Discogs more complete); second, a CD does not necessarily mean new recording, of course ... how does Presto's database handle releases, repackagings, etc.? Third, musicians recording a piece is not the same as a poll/survey, as these individuals are hired hands who don't make the decisions; moreover, those who do are driven often by economic rather than artistic considerations (e.g., ''Finlandia'' sells, ''The Oceanides'' doesn't, despite being superior artistically.) Just my thoughts, <span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:Silence of Järvenpää|~ Silence of Järvenpää]]</span> 15:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
*:I agree, and (I don't think) Discogs is accepted as a reliable source by Wikipedia, either. [[User:MONTENSEM|MONTENSEM]] ([[User talk:MONTENSEM|talk]]) 23:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
*Just stumbled onto this proposal now. A bad idea; basically a kind of ''Buzzfeed'' listicle for musical aesthetes. No encyclopedic purpose would be served by this list, which would be a clear case of [[WP:NOTDB]], as well as possibly [[WP:NOTDIRECTORY]] and [[WP:NOTGUIDE]]. —[[User:CurryTime7-24|CurryTime7-24]] ([[User talk:CurryTime7-24|talk]]) 04:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

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