Talk:Moroccan Jews

Please let me know your thoughts about adding the following sources to History of the Jews in Morocco

The History of the Jews in Morocco article is a very good, well referenced source on all Moroccan Jews from now up to their current status, whereas its "main article" Moroccan Jewry is an unreferenced, pathetic excuse for an article. If I were to correct the problems and expand the Moroccan Jewry article, I would simply be overlapping and duplicating the subjects that were already covered nicely by History of the Jews in Morocco. Thus, the only reasonable solution I see is to merge History of the Jews in Morocco into Moroccan Jewry, creating one very good article on Moroccan Jews, instead of one good one and one awful and duplicative one. I'll be bold and do the merging myself if there are no objections in the next few days. NickDupree (talk) 06:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)Reply

this section should be added. Notebale people include David Guetta. 86.181.112.226 (talk) 18:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)Reply

I'm removing him. TFighterPilot (talk) 13:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

I'm removing him. (Born in Sfax, Tunisia) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.22.186.233 (talk) 23:58, 12 April 2014 (UTC)Reply

Regarding this edit, maybe we can add them in a section titled "Notable Jews of Moroccan Descent"? --Tachfin (talk) 12:44, 11 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

The subject of the article is Moroccan Jews, not "descendants of Moroccan Jews". As it is, the section is already too long, so we should really restrict the article in general (and this section in particular) to its actual topic. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:49, 11 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

I agree with that sub-article because the main article clearly says : "Today, Jews of Moroccan descent can be found all over the world, but mainly in Israel (around 1 million), France, Canada, United States and Venezuela. Fewer than 5,000 Jews remain in Morocco.". It clearly imply that most Moroccan Jews has been in diaspora which has begun since the 19th century and have formed a community in the countries they have settled (Israel , Canada or France).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.98.187 (talk • contribs)

It's not clear what you're saying. While it's true that there are descendants of Moroccan Jews all over the world, it doesn't make those descendants Moroccan, and in any event, Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. Also, please login Ekarfi13 (talk · contribs). Jayjg ^(talk) 21:35, 11 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

Jay, it's the same topic. This is an ethnicity article and as such concerns all people having a certain ethnic root. While I agree that the list should be restricted somehow, I don't think including only those who lived/born in Morocco is the appropriate criteria. --Tachfin (talk) 08:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

It depends on whether you consider "Moroccan Jews" to be a distinct ethnicity or not. Ekarfi13 argued that they were like Ashkenazi Jews, but that's clearly not the case. If anything, a more reasonable analogy would be to Ukrainian or Polish or Hungarian Jews. Are they all specific ethnicities? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

Well it's definitely not the same as Ashkenazi/Sephardi but it's a distinct group with a common culture, heritage and ancestry...For example, in Israel census, they consider someone of Moroccan/German/Polish etc heritage if they were born or had a parent (father) born in that country; grandchildren are considered of Israeli heritage though. Anyway, in our case, this would concern only a few people so it's not big deal. Excluding immediate descendents unnecessarily narrows the scope of this article IMO. --Tachfin (talk) 08:18, 13 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

So are you arguing that children of Jews born in Morocco are also Moroccan Jews, but not grandchildren? Jayjg ^(talk) 13:54, 13 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

I just gave an example of the logic used in Israel. The point is, immediate descendents are part of the scope of this article. After that you get into a grey area. --Tachfin (talk) 14:50, 13 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

What if one parent is a Jew born in Morocco, and the other is a non-Jew born in some other country? What if the child identifies with the non-Jewish parent? Jayjg ^(talk) 16:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

My point here is that unless someone is actually a "Moroccan Jew" (i.e. a Jew from Morocco), we're getting into WP:OR and WP:BLP issues here. I suppose you could say that the child of Moroccan Jews is a Moroccan Jew too if reliable sources describe him/her that way. However, we can't really make our own decisions or criteria as to who does or doesn't qualify. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

No we're not making our own judgement. Take this actress Emmanuelle Chriqui for example, she is Canadian born to Moroccan parents and it isn't difficult to find sources describing her that way. We're not violating BLP if sources report widely that X is of Y descent/Origin. Another example, everyone knows that Zinedine Zidane is of Algerian descent, I don't see how we would be violating WP:BLP by merely pointing out that fact. The diaspora is a central point of this article. --Tachfin (talk) 13:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

OK, let's use Chriqui as an example. Which reliable sources describe her as a "Moroccan Jew"? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

look here --Tachfin (talk) 16:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

That's just a Google search. Which reliable sources describe her as a "Moroccan Jew"? Jayjg ^(talk) 21:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

You can find it there. What's your point? --Tachfin (talk) 05:24, 15 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

So you don't have any reliable sources that describe her as such? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

Our subject isn't this person (not that there are no sources describing her as being of Moroccan origin I can link you to a video where she says it herself) Where do you wanna get? --Tachfin (talk) 05:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

Jayjg, your argument doesn't make sense, because we can just write "Moroccan descent" in brackets, and the reliable sources then support our description. The subject of this article, as it is currently written, is clearly the 'Morrocan Jewish community, as it exists today, which is mainly in diaspora', as opposed to the History of the Jews in Morocco, which is already a separate article. If you wanted, we could make another separate article on the 'Morrocan Jewish diaspora', but it is obviously better to keep the merge here, given that it's not a very long article. Avaya1 (talk) 19:48, 9 March 2012 (UTC)Reply

There are all sorts of WP:BLP and WP:OR concerns when we do this; if someone has one Moroccan Jewish great-grandparent, does that count? In any event, this article is about Moroccan Jews, not about their descendants. If you have reliable sources indicating they are Moroccan Jews, regardless of where they live, then feel free to add them. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:41, 1 April 2012 (UTC)Reply

Second paragraph claims there are still 2000-2500 Jews in Morocco, infobox cites a different source and claims a figure of 10000. Which one is right? 90.215.69.19 (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

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Help required, the table on the top right listing the number of Jews in the world is clearly incorrect and needs to be amended.

It just needs to auto populate from this page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country

I don't know how to fix that, thanks for your assistance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uptightgroove (talk • contribs) 22:19, 1 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

'We saw Jews with hearts like Germans': Moroccan immigrants in Israel warned families not to follow - Israel News - Haaretz.com www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT.MAGAZINE-horrified-by-racism-moroccan-immigrants-in-israel-warned-families-not-to-follow-1.9982152 Kdammers (talk) 10:06, 9 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

• Kenbib, Mohammed. "Moroccan Jews and the Vichy regime, 1940–42." The Journal of North African Studies 19.4 (2014): 540-553.
• Drucker, Peter. "“Disengaging from the Muslim Spirit” The Alliance Israélite Universelle and Moroccan Jews." Journal of Middle East Women's Studies 11.1 (2015): 3-23.
• Semi, Emanuela Trevisan. "DOUBLE TRAUMA AND MANIFOLD NARRATIVES: JEWS'AND MUSLIMS'REPRESENTATIONS OF THE DEPARTURE OF MOROCCAN JEWS IN THE 1950s AND 1960s." Journal of Modern Jewish Studies 9.1 (2010): 107-125.

One or more editors keep trying to change the number of Moroccan Jews living in Israel to 1,000,000. He/she/they are doing this across three articles:

• Moroccan Jews
• Moroccan Jews in Israel
• History of the Jews in Morocco

The Israeli census has been used as a source to support a figure of just under 500,000:

• Jews, by Country of Original and Age, Average 2019, Central Bureau of Statistics, Israeli government, 15 September 2020 This gives a total in 2019 of 472,800 Moroccan Jews living in Israel, comprising 341,200 born in Israel and 131,600 born abroad.
• Statistical Abstract of Israel 2009 - No. 60 Subject 2 - Table NO.24, Central Bureau of Statistics, Israeli government, archived from the original on 13 November 2009, retrieved 12 December 2011 This gave a figure of 486,600 Moroccan Jews living in Israel in 2009.

An IP editor has suggested a citation for the 1,000,000:

• "Dossier: Regionale verhoudingen van Israel, Morocco" [Dossier: Regional relations of Israel, Morocco], Centrum Informatie en Documentatie Israel [Centre for Information and Documentation Israel], Den Haag, The Netherlands. This says: "Zo’n 1 miljoen Israeli’s hebben een Marokkaanse achtergrond, meer dan 10% van de gehele Israelische bevolking." [About 1 million Israelis have a Moroccan background, more than 10% of the entire Israeli population.]

I do not know why this organisation has a such a different figure than the Israeli census.-- Toddy1 (talk) 22:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)Reply