Initiated by RexxS at 21:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Pseudoscience arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• RexxS (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)

I apologise for making what appears to be a content-related request, but the behaviour of editors at Ayurveda and Talk:Ayurveda needs to be restrained, and a simple confirmation should be all that's needed to clarify the underlying issues.

Following a contentious edit war at Ayurveda and a WP:AE discussion, El C created an RfC at resolve the question of whether the phrase "pseudoscience" should be in the lead. The debate involved over 60 editors, was closed as no-consensus, reviewed, and re-opened for closure by an admin.

Many proponents of Ayurveda have taken the opportunity in that debate to argue that Ayurveda is not pseudoscientific and are attempting to have the phrase removed entirely. I believe that the position on Wikipedia is that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience as a matter of fact. I am therefore seeking a clear confirmation from ArbCom that the article is subject to discretionary sanctions as a pseudoscience (as even that fact has been contested). Having a clear statement of the position will enable a closer to accurately weigh the strengths of the arguments and to reject entirely arguments that clearly contradict Wikipedia policy on pseudoscience.

In the decision at WP:ARBPS#Generally considered pseudoscience, ArbCom asserted the principle

Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.

I would like a clarification that the principle includes Ayurveda in the same way as astrology, and consequently that Ayurveda can be considered in the same light.

Thank you in advance for your assistance in this matter. --RexxS (talk) 21:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MrX: It is a truism that as far a WiIkipedia is concerned, Ayurveda is either a pseudoscience or it is not. If it is, then editors who breach WP:AC/DS requirements for behaviour can be sanctioned as an AE action. If it is not, then they cannot. You have earlier disputed that ArbCom has designated Ayurveda as a pseudoscience in Wikipedia's view, but that leads to an unsustainable situation. If your logic holds, any other editor can use your ipse dixit argument to claim that they cannot be sanctioned – simply by stating that Ayurveda is not a pseudoscience on the grounds that ArbCom has not explicitly said so. Any admin can take AE action against any editor breaching the expected standards of behaviour at Astrology; however the consequence, if your reasoning is accepted, is that anyone editing articles such as Ayurveda has a get-out-of-jail-free card by the simple expedient of denying that the topic is a pseudoscience.

We already have prior debate: RfC July 2015 and Talk:Ayurveda/Archive 13 #Pseudoscience concluding that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience, but that is insufficient, it appears, as editors are free to deny the fact as if it were not so.

Who then should be the authority that decides that question? At the very least, ArbCom needs to clarify that position. --RexxS (talk) 22:42, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Xeno: I'm not sure that ArbCom would be comfortable in addressing the second part of my request for clarification, although you were happy enough to do exactly that for Astrology, which is completely analogous to Ayurveda. The first part is naturally more important, particularly as we are currently under attack at the Talk:Ayurveda page from a concerted campaign, organised through Twitter to distort the consensus away from the recognised scientific viewpoint. An admin has felt it necessary to take the extraordinary step of semi-protecting the talk page temporarily, and I've been playing Whack-a-mole with about 30 newly registered meat/sock-puppets who have repeated the same disruptive edit requests. We need a lot more eyes on the disruption to that page, and it's possible that it is going to require another ArbCom case if the DS prove insufficient. Having a clear statement that Ayurveda is pseudoscience in the same way that Astrology is would go a long way to settling down the disruption there and establishing that Wikipedia's content cannot be held hostage by special interest groups. --RexxS (talk) 17:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Newyorkbrad and Katie: we already have had two RfCs confirming that the community regards Ayurveda as pseudoscience, as well as a catalogue of reliable sources stating the same. See  Talk:Ayurveda/Archive 12 #Category:Pseudoscience and Talk:Ayurveda/Archive 13 #Pseudoscience. This does not stop the talk page being flooded with SPAs to distort consensus and oppose the appellation. The serious discussions have been made and the consensus is long-standing, but that doesn't stop the disruption.

@DGG: see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Anuram567. Your idea and mine of "a very small number of editors" differ quite dramatically. --RexxS (talk) 17:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: there is a community consensus that the topic is pseudoscience, but that hasn't stopped the disruption. What is needed is some backbone from ArbCom to make sure that there is not a shadow of doubt about the position of Ayurveda. I'm up to my armpits in alligators over at that article and its talk page and you and a few more admins need to get their backsides over there by the time that the semi-protection wears off the talk page (!) and the disruption starts up again. I'm sick of boatloads of editors with no more than half-a-dozen edits turning up and arguing black is white time and again. --RexxS (talk) 21:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DGG: The Ayurveda article has indeed recently been EC-protected. However, we're in the process of trying to decide issues by discussion on the talk page, but the recent disruption to the talk page has resulted in the talk page being semi-protected for two days. It is not a tenable situation to have talk pages protected, and I don't think you appreciate the degree of disruption we're having to deal with.

If the 2020 committee feels unable to affirm that Ayurveda is included in the principle "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." that the 2006 committee passed 8-0, then so be it: I won't take up any more of your time. --RexxS (talk) 17:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The actions of Petrarchan47 in starting yet another RfC at Talk:Ayurveda on an issue that was settled two weeks ago are a shining example of the sort of disruption that is being caused in this area following Opindia's campaign to distort Wikipedia's decision-making processes. Regular editors are becoming weary of the time-sink involved in dealing with questions that have been repeatedly asked and answered. As I've been assured that discretionary sanctions are sufficient to deal with the problem, I'll give advance notice that I intend to sanction Petrarchan47 as an AE action if that disruptive RfC is not withdrawn within 24 hours. Let's see whether ds really does do its job. --RexxS (talk) 18:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Petrarchan47: you can be as sad as you want to be, but the regular editors at Ayurveda are sick of disruption of the sort that you and Opindia are causing. There is no reason whatsoever to attempt to relitigate the "is Ayurveda a pseudoscience" question yet again, when all previous debates have answered that in the affirmative, including one that was closed on 30 August 2020. --RexxS (talk) 18:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If the arbitrators feel that explicitly declaring this (or any) topic as pseudoscience would be a content decision, an alternative option would be to allow the discretionary sanctions to be applied to topics that are described as pseudoscience in independent reliable sources even if that status is disputed. In other words saying that the DS applies to subject areas that are or are called pseudoscience so that the application of DS itself does not require a determination of whether it is or is not pseudoscience and the application of DS does not mean that Wikipedia is necessarily calling something pseudoscience. Thryduulf (talk) 11:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Re Shashank5988 I'd forgotten about that case, but discretionary sanctions are indeed authorised for "Complimentary and alternative medicine" and would seem to be a good fit. The Ayurveda article describes it as "an alternative medicine system" and a look at the current talk page suggests that this characterisation is not disputed. Thryduulf (talk) 13:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@RexxS: If there is or was a community consensus that the topic is pseudoscience then the pseudoscience DS applies. If there is active debate about whether the topic is pseudoscience then the pseudoscience DS applies. The alternative medicine DS also applies. If the DS isn't working then I don't understand what arbcom saying that the pseudoscience DS applies will change? In terms of content the most the committee could say is that there is a community consensus that the topic is pseudoscience (anything else would be a pronouncement on content that is outside their remit) - what would such a statement change? Thryduulf (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Arbcom created Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture for subjects like this, to avoid the conflict between "pseudoscience" and "alternative medicines". Shashank5988 (talk) 11:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that clarification is needed, inasmuch as a principle from a nearly 14 year old Arbcom case has been leveraged to assert that various subjects are pseudoscience based on ipse dixit declarations by involved editors. If my recollection serves me, previous Arbcoms have opined about this before (someone could perhaps check so that this Arbcom doesn't have to reinvent the wheel). Perhaps it's addressed in this FOF: WP:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Pseudoscience_2.

RexxS has expressed an understanding that, by my interpretation, would cast a broad net over a range of subjects making them automatically classified as pseudoscience based on (I guess) it being "pointed out in a discussion".[1][2] I think it's self-evident why such an approach to dispute resolution would be problematic. If not, please let me know and I will explain further.

There are proponents with strong views on both side of the dispute at Ayurveda (note: I'm uninvolved). I would aver that simply because members of one side declare that "the position on Wikipedia is that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience as a matter of fact" does not make it so. Nor does it obviate the question in dispute: should the subject be described as pseudoscience in the first sentence of the article? Arbcom either needs to distance themselves from this reasoning or embrace it, because the ambiguity left by a nearly 14 year old Arbcom case has to potential to be weaponized in these disputes. This is not the first article where such a dispute has broken out. - MrX 🖋 19:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@RexxS: I'm not aware that there is a serious dispute that Ayurveda is subject to discretionary sanctions. WP:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions says "Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all articles pages relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted.". Does anyone disagree that Aruyveda is at least related to pseudoscience and fringe science?

However, that's an entirely different issue than your request which says "clarification that the principle includes Ayurveda in the same way as astrology, and consequently that Ayurveda can be considered in the same light." In other words, I don't think you are asking if editors on the article are subject to DS, but whether the article can describe the subject as pseudoscience on the basis of the a principle written in a 2006 Arbcom case. - MrX 🖋 14:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Subjects like Ayurveda are clearly covered by the decision on Complementary and Alternative Medicine [3]. As about pseudoscience, it was another decision [4], with good wording: "Theories which have a following, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community".

In my view, no action is required here because the specific area of Complementary and Alternative Medicine is already covered by your decision. However, what qualify as pseudoscience in general is a good question. I think it is not enough just to say "if there is any plausible dispute over whether DS applies in a specific case". One must have at least one solid RS saying that subject X belongs to pseudoscience. Yes, there are such sources in the case of Ayurveda, although the consensus of RS seems to be this is just a traditional medicine. Should we label all projects in the field of traditional medicine funded by the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (a part of National Institutes of Health) as pseudoscience? I doubt. My very best wishes (talk) 15:49, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Newyorkbrad. OK. So, if an admin thinks that certain edits (for example, about a book) might belong to pseudoscience, than it is covered by pseudoscience DS, even if there are zero sources claiming the subject belongs to pseudoscience (and in fact it may belong to mainstream science)? That seems too much, given that admins may not be experts in the corresponding area of science. My very best wishes (talk) 02:27, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Newyorkbrad. Thank you! Understood and agree. My very best wishes (talk) 04:36, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• As a side note, this is actually about content. I think too many subjects in WP are labeled "pseudoscience". This is a very serious label, and it must be exceptionally well sourced. Some of these subjects are simply not science, but a traditional medicine or something else, like Aurveda. Others, like Osteopathy aka Osteopathic medicine, implement at least some science-based procedures (one can follow this subsection of page Osteopathy to linked page Osteopathic medicine in the United States to realize this), and even completely mainstream Allopathic medicine was included to template "Alternative medicine". My very best wishes (talk) 21:59, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I'm aware, the answer is that the pseudoscience DS apply regardless, but the scope of DS cannot itself affect how the topic is described in an article. This is because the scope follows the concept of broadly construed - the DS will apply because the question "does this qualify as X?" is itself an X-related topic (otherwise topic-banned editors could wikilawyer endlessly around the edges of their sanction). However, for the same reason, simply being within the scope of X-related DS doesn't actually tell us whether or not the topic is or is not an X. Quoting from WP:BROADLY (I'm the original author of this text, but it's never been challenged in the more than two years since it was written): "Broadly construed" is also used when defining the topic areas affected by discretionary sanctions. In particular, if there is any plausible dispute over whether DS applies in a specific case (for example, definitional disputes: whether a particular issue counts as a type of American political issue, whether a particular practice counts as a type of alternative medicine, etc), that is normally taken to mean that it does. For this particular case, while the article does indeed state that Ayurveda or parts thereof are pseudoscience as a matter of fact (and has done so for a long time), that is because of the strength of the sourcing as determined by previous consensus, rather than being directly determined by ArbCom. The specific statement at WP:ARBPS#Generally considered pseudoscience does apply, but I think of it as mostly being a confirmation that using the term "pseudoscience" is in fact permissible under these circumstances. Sunrise (talk) 10:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MVBW: Traditional medicine and similar practices become pseudoscience when their effectiveness is disproven and they continue to be promoted regardless. Except in the most restrictive definitions, promotion with a disregard for evidence or on the basis of an unscientific belief system will also constitute pseudoscience (non-scientific reasoning is being presented as supporting a scientific claim). With regards to the allopathic medicine article, the template itself may or may not be warranted, but the relationship comes from the origins of the term as a derogatory label used by homeopaths. Sunrise (talk) 15:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I I think the only answer is that all discussions of whether a topic is pseudoscience fall under the pseudoscience DS (that is the entire point of the restrictions, since that is the whole debate that requires DS in that topic area), and that, once the issue has been raised, the entire topic falls under the pseudoscience DS restrictions until there is an affirmative consensus that it is not pseudoscience. As long as there is reasonable doubt that it might be pseudoscience, basically, there is going to be debate of the sort that the DS were specifically created to govern. Obviously the applicability of the DS restrictions in that situation should not itself be taken as an absolute statement that the topic is pseudoscience, merely that it is at least under dispute. --Aquillion (talk) 19:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The determination of whether or not something is pseudoscience is a content decision that needs to be made by the community, but the determination of whether or not something falls under the scope of an AC/DS is very much a decision that is ultimately ARBCOM's responsibility. Making that decision does not require a ruling on content as such; it just requires ARBCOM to determine whether the problematic behavior that led to the authorization of DS is present in the topic under consideration. As such, this is a decision ARBCOM needs to be willing to make, regardless of whether another DS regime applies. By refusing to decide whether the pseudoscience DS regime covers Ayurveda, ARBCOM creates the possibility of endless wikilawyering with respect to the scope of such regimes, specifically, the argument that because there is not consensus among reliable sources that a topic is related to the name of a DS regime, that the relevant sanctions do not apply. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Xeno: I'll leave it to RexxS to articulate what he wants from this request; but my statement was more in response to the many people arguing here that this would constitute an expansion of the DS regime, or that ARBCOM needn't bother answering whether Ayurveda is within scope here because Ayurveda is covered by the alternative medicine DS regime. I think both of those are dangerous lines of argument for the reasons I've given above. I think you (ARBCOM) need to make explicit that Ayurveda is within the scope of these sanctions, and moreover, clarify why you've made that determination. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DGG: To be clear, are you arguing that pseudoscience DS do not apply to Ayurveda, contrary to what Xeno and others have said? Vanamonde (Talk) 18:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DGG: With respect, that's not the question I asked. I'm asking whether Ayurveda falls within the scope of an ARBCOM authorized discretionary sanctions regime, namely, the pseudoscience DS. The scope of those sanctions is within your purview and no-one else's; refusing to take a position on that is a cop-out. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:15, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure that this is a problem that Arbcom should try to fix, but I am sure that we have a problem, most of which is the direct result of OpIndia declaring war on Wikipedia and sending an army of twitter followers to the Ayurveda (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) page.

An incomplete history of Wikipedia's previous attempts to solve this problem:

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Talk:Ayurveda
• Talk:Ayurveda#RFC: pseudoscience in the opening sentence
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive310#Ayurveda
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive272#RFC Review at Talk:Ayurveda/Archive 9
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive266#Ayurveda
• Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 69#Quacks who poison patients with mercury compounds and the Wikipedia editors who think this is OK
• Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 44#Ayurveda
• Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 43#Ayurveda and modern medical terminology
• Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 28#Ayurveda#Safety
• Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 28#Ayurveda and Talk:Ayurveda again
• Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 27#Ophthalmology in Ayurveda
• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 301#Journal of Natural Science Biology and Medicine
• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 244#Ayurveda

• Re: "It already has Extended confirmed protection, and why is that not enough?" We are still seeing a large amount of disruption. The protection stopped the flood of new accounts posting the same thing over and over, but OpIndia's twitter feed continues to attack Wikipedia and is encouraging posts to the Ayurveda talk page by twitter followers who have existing Wikipedia accounts and are already extended confirmed.

• I am going to expand on what I wrote above ("I am not sure that this is a problem that Arbcom should try to fix"): I have yet to see a good argument showing that this is a problem that Arbcom should try to fix. We need multiple administrators watching over not just Ayurveda but whatever page OpInda attacks next (there is a list at User:PaleoNeonate/Watchlist Ayurveda). We need them to aggressively pageblock editors who were obviously sent by OpInda. I fail to see how any of this needs Arbcom intervention. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Question I occasionally see comments like "X says he scrambled his password, but we can't verify this". In such cases, is it technically possible to ask the users "are you sure" and then reset the password without telling them what the new password is? Or does the software not allow that? If the answer is yes, should we? --Guy Macon (talk) 14:49, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If the community has determined that Ayurveda is pseudoscience, then ArbCom - which does not make content determinations -- must treat it as pseudoscience and enforce against it any sanctions which are routinely used against pseudoscience. ArbCom has absolutely no remit to overturn a community determination about content. ArbCom's personal or collective opinions on the matter are completely irrelevant, since its hands are tied by the community decision.

That being said, ArbCom could exclude Ayurveda from any specific DS simply by changing the wording of the text and excluding Ayurveda from the definition of "pseudoscience" for the purposes of that sanction.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This strikes me as a tempest in a teapot. I am certain that Pseudoscience DS apply. I also think that that job of arbcom is not to adjudicate content. I asked you all some years ago to vacate the nonsense demarcation that a now-disgraced arbitrator penned oh-these-many years ago. The time is now to vacate that. An arbitration decision that says what is or is not pseudoscience is just not a good idea.

If there is a reasonable conflict/discussion about whether arguments about pseudoscience is relevant to a page, the pseudoscience DS are relevant. Obviously, it is relevant to ayurveda. That is as far as arbcom should be moving. I recommend vacating all the attempted demarcation and letting the community get back to business. Yes, that means that DS could be applied to pages relating to psychoanalysis (this is eminently reasonable). After all, WP:FRINGE works pretty well now in comparison to when this case (to which I was a party) was decided.

Love, etc.

jps (talk) 00:50, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, it may be that there are enough interested parties to warrant a full case for arbitration. I am not yet convinced of that, but in principle if we get a lot of BJP activists coming in and arguing for more kid-gloved treatment of ayurveda or vedic astrology or hindu creationism, well maybe a case. But right now I think we have things under control as long as y'all are willing to say that Psuedoscience DS apply where the people here are claiming they apply. jps (talk) 00:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and in case you need a clearer exhortation, it's this: REMOVE SPECIFIC MENTION OF BOTH ASTROLOGY AND PSYCHOANALYSIS FROM THIS ARBCOM CASE'S RULINGS. This isn't because I disagree with those rulings (though, in the case of psychoanalysis, it is something with which I disagree), it is simply because arbcom doesn't make these kinds of determinations any more. jps (talk) 00:57, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is troubling that discretionary sanctions are still in force for a case that is 14 years old. Shouldn't these sanctions have an automatic sunset? The point of sanctions is to solve a problem. Once the problem is solved we should default to our usual rules, which should be sufficient. If a set of sanctions is in force for (to pick an arbitrary term) three years, and the problem still isn't solved, then it's probably time to have a another case to figure out why the problem hasn't been solved, and maybe change the sanctions to something stronger. If an area like American politics is a source of perpetual problems, then we should write that into our community rules and make whatever measures are needed permanent. Jehochman ^Talk 10:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My views align closer to KrakatoaKatie relative to not knowing what vitamins I should take, if any. As for the content and conduct issues, there appears to be some agreement that ArbCom does not exist to adjudicate article content; count me as a +1. On the other hand, my perspective about DS is that, in practice for the most part, they are neither resolutions nor binding solutions to resolve conduct issues because you cannot bind what is malleable or what was left unresolved. Isn't that why we're here now? DS obliquely, if not directly in some instances, regulate content because they create unintentional hurdles in an environment that is ripe for WP:POV creep, perceived or otherwise. AE grants admins super-authority by allowing them to impose irreversible sanctions against editors in a unilateral action at their sole discretion. In essence, ArbCom is throwing the ball back into the court of irreconcilable differences allowing a single admin to grab the ball and run to the goalpost of their choice (which creates an in the eyes of the beholder decision-making process) and they can do so with no concern of an interception or penalty flag. Most of us try to AGF but as a realist, I'm not quite convinced that decisions based on sole discretion are completely void of prejudice or bias - especially when it involves issues that already failed other DR processes. Give me a choice between sole discretion vs a panel of independent thinkers, and I'll choose the latter. Bottomline, my perception of ArbCom's responsibility is to impose binding solutions to Wikipedia conduct disputes that neither community discussion nor administrators have successfully resolved.. Editors who are elected to serve on ArbCom possess certain qualities that have garnered the community's trust, in part because they have demonstrated sound judgment, fairness and neutrality. There is also the thought that several heads are better than one because it adds an element of diversity. Some of the issues that are perceived to be disruption in highly controversial topic areas are "ended" (not always resolved) by a single admin making a judgment call, and in those cases, the potential for such decisions to be unknowingly influenced by POV or prejudice against an editor is highly plausible. The latter is why the community elected a panel - ArbCom - to handle the difficult cases. Somewhere beyond that is the reason we have so many essays. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:36, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Guy - not trying to be contrare, but I am curious...isn't John Hopkins Medicine a RS? They make no reference to ayurveda as a pseudoscience, rather they refer to it as "a complementary therapy in combination with standard, conventional medical care." Also, EPMA Journal, which has an 4.9 IF and a Scopus CiteScore of 7.7 in 2019, states: "This review article concludes that traditional knowledge systems like Ayurveda and modern scientific evidence-based medicine should be integrated." And there's also Science Direct (Elsevier) which lists multiple books and chapters about "ayuverdic medicine", and this article, (https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-12-816347-4.00009-X), Chapter 9 - Potential Treatment Strategies of Dementia With Ayurvedic Medicines, and on and on. I know Science Direct is a RS, and they don't exactly support the POV that it's "pseudoscience". ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:20, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Adding Who Global Report On Traditional and Complementary Medicine 2019, pg 189, which states: Traditional Medicine (TM) and Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM):“Traditional medicine” is a comprehensive term used to refer to both various forms of indigenous medicine and to TM systems such as traditional Chinese medicine, Indian ayurveda, and Arabic unani medicine. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:31, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• The community can't really decide if a topic fits under a DS. They can make content decisions, but not this determination. That's made by uninvolved admins by an authority that descends from ArbCom.
• If an abuse of admin discretion was suggested at ARCA, some criteria to determine whether the article was in scope would probably apply (even if only implicit; obviously it would be inappropriate to apply PSDS to Banana). That would be as much of a content decision as deciding whether Ayurveda fits the bill under the psuedoscience DS.
• This particular case is probably resolved by Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture. It does not necessarily fix the underlying issue. Arbs have suggested the Acupuncture case as being relevant to Ayurveda and thus resolving this issue, which means they consider Ayurveda as "Complementary and Alternative Medicine". According to our articles, "Alternative Medicine" is a subtype of pseudoscience (indeed, it is by definition). In other words, that determination effectively states that Ayurveda is a psuedoscience in a roundabout way, which is apparently what the Committee wants to avoid in this case.

It's not a content decision to decide whether something fits the scope. Ayurveda obviously fits the scope, we all know that here, so that part isn't exceptional. What is exceptional is that nobody wants to say it.

Thus, I think the real lesson here is to create non-inflammatory scopes for a DS. Calling something a "psuedoscience", even under the language of WP:BROADLY, is perceived as inflammatory I guess, which is probably why Arbs don't want to say it. But nobody would hesitate clarifying NRA falls under "organizations associated with [gun control]". PSDS is probably the only active DS with a perceived inflammatory scope. But, as above, AC ultimately still has to decide if an article fits within the scope of a DS, because it's the only body that can, and it has to make this decision (even implicitly) every time it reviews an ARCA for scope overreach. Shying away from that for PSDS doesn't seem like a good idea. Easy way out seems to be a comment along the lines of NYB. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 02:55, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is aurveda unambiguously pseudoscience? Is the study of ayurveda permeated by pseudoscience? Are these the same thing? That would be an ecumenical matter, but that is not the question here. ArbCom would not mandate that a thing is or is not pseudoscience, they would mandate whether it falls into the pseudoscience DS. Which IMO it does, per WP:BROADLY, because there is, at the very least, solid support in RS for the idea that it is.

There appears to be consensus that the term pseudoscience can be included in the lead, as it is well sourced and in line with our approach to other pseudomedical modalities (as shorthand, Supplements, Complementary and Alternative Medicine or SCAM). The main problem is an endless succession of new single-purpose accounts following a thread on Twitter, a side effect of blowback from recent statements by the Indian medical Association characterising people practising medicine based solely on study of folkways as quacks. This is complicated by the prevalence of ayurveda in India, whose pluralistic and multitheistic culture leads to an acceptance of quasi-religious beliefs as inherently valid. This lack of judgmentalism - a core Indian value - means that quasi-religions alternatives-to-medicine are accorded parity of respect with reality-based medicine, including by the government via its Ministry of Ayurveda, Yoga & Naturopathy, Unani, Siddha and Homoeopathy (AYUSH).

Per DGG's points below, when the original DS were passed on homeopathy in 2006, it was considered thoroughly refuted by informed scientists but it was still actively promoted by national health systems. Since then, Switzerland, the UK, Australia, France, Spain and Russia have been through high level reviews and have recommended withdrawal of funding. In 2006 there were several homeopathic hospitals in the UK funded by the NHS. Now, there are none. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy would not happen today, we would simply topic ban Dana Ullman.

The status of aurveda today is not dissimilar from that of homeopathy in 2006. Because it uses pharmacologically active doses it is more resistant to trivial refutation than homeopathy, but the trajectory is similar: it is a pseudomedical system with a growing base of evidence that its fundamental approach is incorrect, and, crucially, it cannot self-correct because any honest test of whether substance A or substance B is better for condition X gives an ideologically unacceptable answer: neither. The reality-based study of herbal preparations - "does this herb contain molecules that may have a curative property" - is called pharmacognosy, ayurveda starts from the incorrect premise that some herb is always a cure and that nothing else is necessary.

The DS are there to manage behavioural issues brought on by asymmetric motivation and the collision of quasi-religious belief with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. That is present here. It needs the provisions of DS now for exactly the same reasons that homeopathy did historically, and in 10-15 years' time these too will probably have become superfluous save for rapidly separating the occasional True Believer from the article. Guy (help! - typo?) 07:58, 10 September 2020 (UTC) [edited for brevity][reply]

There is justification for a case here, but not because some Indians are pestering editors at Ayurveda with spurious complaints. A potential case should look at the behaviour of editors who have been misrepresenting sources, rejecting needed corrections, and defending the unsupported "Ayurveda (AY) is pseudoscience (PS)" claim as sacrosanct. Editors and Admins have violated WP:V and WP:NPOV to create the article that is causing so much distress.

The Hindu Post has an article calling out the bias on this page, it's worth a look. The laughable idea being floated is that some unidentified tweet is responsible for the flood of criticism, as if to say critiques have no merit.

Today in this edit, Guy removed recent corrections to the page, referring to them as "bowing to the Twitter mob", and restored false claims, including a wildly inaccurate claim to first paragraph of the Lede, reinserting: The Indian Medical Association (IMA) characterises the practice of modern medicine by Ayurvedic practitioners as quackery. In no way does the IMA refer to all practitioners of AY in their statement. The IMA clearly states that some practitioners of alternative therapies in India are representing themselves as qualified to practice modern medicine, but aren't properly licensed, and they are (rightly) categorized as "quacks".

Google revealed no consensus for "Ayurveda is pseudoscience", but rather justified removing the label. There is no mention of PS in:Merriam Webster, Brittanica, online dictionary, WebMD, John's Hopkins, NIH , or Cancer.gov

Wikipedia is the only major source calling AY PS in unqualified terms. The WP community cannot override the scientific community using shoddy, outdated sources, misrepresenting sources, and WP:SYNTH:

A look at the article

LEDE:

The theory and practice of Ayurveda is pseudoscientific

Sources:

• Psych Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry, 2013 - 1 mention of AY found: "These pseudoscience theories may...[such as Ayurveda] confuse metaphysical with empirical claims"
• "Disenchanting India: Organized Rationalism and Criticism of Religion in India" (2012) book by Johannes Quack; paywalled, no quotation given

BODY

1) Today, ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientific on account of its confusion between reality and metaphysical concepts.

Source:

• Psych

2) Ayurvedic practitioner Ram P Manohar writes that Ayurveda has been alternatively characterized as pseudoscientific, protoscientific, and unscientific, and proposes himself that it should be termed "trans-scientific".

Source:

• 2009 transcript of talk, however Manohar says (Wiki attacks Ayurveda and Vaidya Rammanohar - His Rejoinder) he was "misquoted", and adds that Ayurveda "seems to have been very recently edited with some malicious intent". A look at April's Lede compared with today's Lede gives credence to this claim. Removed the following day*

3) Research into ayurveda has been characterized as pseudoscience. Both the lack of scientific soundness in the theoretical foundations of ayurveda and the quality of research have been criticized.

Sources:

• Psych
• Sujatha, 2011 "Such discourses may even be termed as pseudosciences"
• Manohar, 2013 "Already Ayurveda has been characterized as “pseudoscience” by Beall in the wake of the sudden explosion of spurious publishers and publications dealing with research in Ayurveda. Although Beall is obviously biased against Ayurveda..."
• Snake oil science: the truth about complementary and alternative medicine (2007) "nothing remotely similar to the energies of vata, pitta, and kasha has ever been documented in biology..."

petrarchan47คุก 23:55, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• DGG - Respectfully, while WP may have once been 'just an encyclopedia', it now serves as the ultimate purveyor of facts for searches on Google, Siri and Alexa, who use the first few sentences of WP pages to answer queries about any subject. Thousands of Indians are rightfully upset since the recent addition of false, unsupported and disparaging material to the Lede paragraph shows up globally for all searches of "Ayurveda". There is a 2 week old Change.org petition with 10K signatures ("We are against wikipedia's statement which says ayurveda is pseudo scientific").

My attempts to correct one falsehood have been reverted by Guy M and Guy C

You might take a moment to review the sources used to support the "pseudoscience" claim. They are mere mentions by random authors, no substantive discussion nor any authoritative source is offered, because none exist AFAIK. The label was created by WP by ignoring basic policy. Only Arbs can curtail POV pushing admins/editors.

Interestingly, Ram Manohar shows that it is easy to cast modern medicine as pseudoscience if one desires. petrarchan47คุก 16:05, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I have opened a RfC to discuss whether sourcing supports the pseudoscience label at Ayurveda. petrarchan47คุก 18:02, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RexxS I have shown that the IMA is being misquoted by editors and admins, yet no one has jumped to apply DS. This ARCA clearly shows there are questions within the community about the categorization of Ayurveda. My review of the sources used to support this contentious claim show me that there is absolutely no authoritative source, nor mix of them, that qualifies. I have listed the sources in the RfC with the cited material, and if the community disagrees with me, fine. To call my good faith efforts "disruption", and group me in with past, unrelated disruption, and threaten me for doing the work of a good faith editor is just sad. petrarchan47คุก 18:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that arbitrations are a means to support that admins in highly contentious situations, that is, in situations which they cannot deal with on their own. So we have arbitration, and then perhaps a discretionary sanction so that the admins have something behind her or him when things get rough. Arbitration has declared some subject areas pseudoscience, those "which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." If arbitration was out of step with the "don't involve themselves in content disputes" well it's too late. Whether Ayurveda is a pseudoscience, "characteristically fail[s] to adhere to scientific standards and methods" or is fringe to the mainstream science is not disputed by numerous sources. Arbs don't have to agree to anything here except to support something they in the past have already agreed on. I don't see the difficulty.

And we don't have to compare Ayurveda to anything. As an alternative medicine system it is thousands of years old so we can expect there to be a huge divide between those who practice or support Ayurveda and modern medicine. I would disagree that the trajectory of Ayurveda is similar to homeopathy. Ayurveda has been around for a very long time, predates organized religion, and physicians are still being trained; my suspicion is that it will be around for a lot longer. None of that matters, though. As long as Wikipedia has both taken the mainstream scientific view and Ayurveda fits that view, then, that's what we deal with in articles. If an admin needs a clarification in a situation that is beyond one person to handle what's the sticking point. (And as aside. I think at times we use pseudoscience and fringe as weapons. Fringe simply means something is not in the mainstream. Yet (possibly). Most if not all research begins as fringe and as non-compliant with our MEDRS articles.) Littleolive oil (talk) 22:37, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've known for years that the Indian medicine articles were hopelessly biased and I've also known for years to not even bother to make any attempt to remove what I see as the blatant bias. India does have doctors and nurses well-trained in western medicine but many of them leave the country because they can earn more money elsewhere and those that don't leave almost invariably choose to practice in the large cities. So that leaves most Indians with Indian medicine as their only choice. So what that comes down to is that we have our encyclopedia saying that most of the people in India are being treated by quacks using pseudoscience. The Indian parliament is not calling their practitioners of Indian medicine quacks. So either they are so ill-informed that they can't understand that only western medicine is real medicine or they just don't care about their own people. I believe that it is racist to call a good number of the Indian people either stupid or uncaring or both. Knowing what I was getting into, but never the less I tried awhile ago to change some wording that I felt was racist in one of the Indian medicine articles and eventually had to give up with many wasted words and a fair amount of wasted time. Quoting Petrarchan above, I was met with the same argument: "The Indian Medical Association (IMA) characterises the practice of modern medicine by Ayurvedic practitioners as quackery. In no way does the IMA refer to all practitioners of AY in their statement. The IMA clearly states that some practitioners of alternative therapies in India are representing themselves as qualified to practice modern medicine, but aren't properly licensed, and they are (rightly) categorized as 'quacks'." IMO both Petrarchan's and Littleolve oil's posts are both spot on. Gandydancer (talk) 03:16, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• I don't think the committee has to take the position that any particular subject is pseudoscience for DS from that case to be applied (that the status is disputed is rather the point). RexxS: others have noted that the Acupuncture DS could also be applied: would that solve the immediate issue? –xeno^talk 16:23, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vanamonde93: Any article where there is significant dispute as to whether it is pseudoscience is covered under the Pseudoscience discretionary sanctions: the article already carries the PS DS heading, and I don't think that loophole would carry very far. It seems the clarification request goes further in asking the committee to declare that not only does the DS apply, but also to classify the article subject "as a pseudoscience" (making a content determination) so that certain principles of the Pseudoscience case can be applied more directly - am I reading that right RexxS? –xeno^talk 16:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vanamonde93: The existence of significant editorial disputes as to whether the topic is pseudoscience is sufficient for that topic to be covered by the Pseudoscience discretionary sanctions. In this context, I've withdrawn my question as to whether the Acupuncture DS could be substituted. –xeno^talk 17:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • RexxS: I don't think you'll get a pronouncement from the 2020 committee that the topic is pseudoscience, despite what the 2006 committee might have said about astrology. The committee might be able to certify that there is community consensus that a preponderance of reliable sources indicate the topic to be pseudoscience and accordingly there is a consensus for it to be be described as such in the article, but I don't really think that kind of thing requires the committee, it can be done at a noticeboard or the article talk page. –xeno^talk 15:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • RexxS the topic would be covered by that principle to the extent that it "is generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community". It's not the committee that needs to make that determination, it's the editing community through inclusion of sources and community discussions (and from what you've outlined here, that determination has already been made). In any case: any statement made here by the committee is unlikely to affect the behaviour of the inexperienced editors which have been coming to the article/talk page. –xeno^talk 17:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Guy Macon: Thank you for the additional context. The article talk page is semi-protected until 12 Sept 2020, and a page was created for non-confirmed users to post. Discretionary sanctions are in place and enforcement paths are available. If the belief is that the community is unable to handle the issue administratively, it is probably better to file a full case that would allow for more and wider viewpoints (however my above comment re: efficacy applies). Since the edits of concern are mainly from new and newer editors, the wider issue (including the more recent developments covered in the ANI thread) could be heard at WP:AN so other interventions (general sanctions, higher levels of protection, etc.) may be considered by the community before asking the committee to intervene. –xeno^talk 15:41, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• A discussion of whether or not a given field or phenomenon is a pseudoscience should fall within the discretionary sanctions. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:39, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @My very best wishes: I'm speaking of a serious discussion that's overtly focused on whether something is a pseudoscience or not, not of a mental reservation that might be present in one admin's head. We just need to avoid the circularity of needing to know the outcome of a discussion of how we categorize something before we can define the rules of the discussion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:24, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I am unwilling to expand the scope of pseudoscience especially in a situation where there seems to be some cultural bias--it his treated in some geographies as a science with long historical roots and academic underpinnings. Arb com had no business declaring what fields are pseudoscience, or restricting or prescribing the content edited in these or any other fields. (with the exception of such things as blp) Nor does it have any need to deal with ordinary disruptive editing--ordinary admin remedies are sufficient for that. What arbcom does have the right and responsibility of doing is declaring that some fields are so exceptionally disruptive that arb enforcement sticky remedies are needed. The original basis for DS remedies was that in some such fields admins would revert each other, creating untenable situations unless the abbility to do so were restrained. The introduction of DS was successful, and did pretty much put a stop to that sort of privileged disruption. There may be some fields where this is still necessary--I might for example agree thaat American Politics is one of them, at least for the next few months, and some ethnic conflicts, perhaps even indefinitely. It could conceivably be argued that some forms of pseudoscience such as homeopathy are also. though I have doubts here--it has been so thoughly refuted. . I think the addition of any specific pseudoscience or other field to the list should should be discouraged unless it is proven that ordinary admin methhods have failed to deal with disruption. Ordinary arb methods have lately been dealing quite effectively with disruption, as can be seen by the many fewer cases that need to come to arb com. In my view, adding this field to the list unnecessary; its advocates are a very small number of editors who can be dealt with by the ordinary admin remedies. DGG ( talk ) 08:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RexxS: I see a very large number of probable puppets, and ordinary sanctions, not DS, are quite enough to deal with that. DS had a possible role when there are persistent editorss getting repeatedly blocked; it adds nothing to the ordinary admin remedies in cases such as you mention. It does not show a need to arb com. DGG ( talk ) 19:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RexxS: I did now look at the talk page. What do you propose to do under DS that you would be unable to do now.? DGG ( talk ) 17:52, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking further since I wrote my original comment, I have strenthened my view on DS--I would never support using them even in AP, where they have served to discourage open discussion and influence POV,. DGG ( talk ) 19:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde My personal view of whether ayurveda is a pseudoscience is irrelevant here. I'm responding as an arb, and as an arb I have no opinion about content. To the extent the original pseudoscience RFA was an attempt by arb com to give an opinion on content it was a erroneous decision, and we should not repeat their error. To the extent it dealt with conduct of various editors, it was a good decision. DGG ( talk ) 22:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I thank you, Vanamonde, for your repeated question, because is has helped me make my positions clearer. it is not within the scope of any arbitrator to decide the nature of a medical procedure. It is not for us to decide this, and it was not correctly within our scope to make any similar decision we made in the past. If the previous cases implied it was, or required us to decide, they were wrong--it is outside our area. Based on the discussion here, a few other arbs seem to also refuse to take a stand on the matter. In particular your questions have helped me settle my position on the more general question of DS: I would abolish them, and then there would be no more such questions. among other merits of terminating the procedure, is that it leads to inappropriate requests for us to involve ourself in deciding content. What is within the scope of arb com is to end the concept of DS, and the only reason I do not now propose it by motion is that I do not think it would have a majority yet. DGG ( talk ) 04:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I can't decide what vitamins to take, so I'm in absolutely no position to decide if something is or isn't pseudoscience. Those are discussions that need to take place in a community process per NYB. Katie^talk 13:27, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I would prefer to leave the decisions of whether something is pseudoscience up to the editing community when possible. However, it seems like the discretionary sanctions on alternative medicine are applicable here, so is this now a solved problem? GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:23, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GW--what makes it impossible for the editing community to deal with the question? It already has Extended confirmed protection, and why is that not enough? DGG ( talk ) 20:09, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Guy, I thought that might be the problem, but wouldn't it be solved by blocking people making disruptive repetitive postings, especially by using the new facility for blocking from a particular page. Any admin can do that as a normal admin action--it doesn't take DS. The only advantage of DS would be if these blocks were being reversed by other admins. Is that the case? What else do you suggest that needs DS? Or is it just meant to be a way of giving a very strong warning? DGG ( talk ) 17:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little confused which of these comments are directed at me—please feel free to move this reply if I've incorrectly placed it. I don't personally believe that the editing community is unable to determine whether this subject is pseudoscience. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:57, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

so, looking at your last note, you do not expect any practical effect from this? They why bother? The decision to call is pseudoscience is an editorial decision and can be done regardless of what arbcom thinks about it.. (fwiw, as I thought I had made clear, I disagree with labelling topics as pseudoscience at least in the overly heavy-handed way it is currently used for this topic, and if the arb com decision is used as an excuse to justify it, we need to revise most of the 2006 decision. DGG ( talk ) 20:38, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean by "why bother". Why bother making a clarification request? Presumably because RexxS didn't know if ArbCom was willing to answer one-off requests as to whether a topic is covered by a specific DS, which is understandable given that there is some general disagreement around whether we should. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:17, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Whether or not the article should refer to Ayurveda as pseudoscience is entirely the decision of the editing community, a decision which should be based entirely upon reliable sources and not past ArbCom statements. Discussions about such language can be moderated under the DS rules, and implemented at the discretion of an uninvolved administrator. Beyond that, we have the "broadly construed" language to cover edge cases, as well as the DS authorized for "Complementary and Alternative Medicine" for when "Pseudoscience" isn't the right description. – bradv🍁 21:14, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Beyond My Ken, I don't understand your comment. What specifically are you asserting ArbCom is obliged to do? The only relevant remedies that I know of are listed at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Remedies and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Acupuncture#Remedies, and none of them mandate anything. They just authorize discretionary sanctions, which still have to be enacted by an uninvolved admin. – bradv🍁 23:52, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  RexxS, you are clearly INVOLVED with respect to the Ayurveda article, having made your opinion on the substance of the dispute abundantly clear. Please leave arbitration enforcement to another administrator. – bradv🍁 18:55, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• The "broadly construed" language though originally a good idea, is now in practice used as a device to sweep as much as possible into the same bin where arb com previously decided we need not follow NPOV, but what we think as scientists ought to be the POV. .

As a separate issue, anything that relies on DS will fail. The only way forward is for arb com to directly regulate conduct by removing prejudiced editors and admins, either from an area or from WP, not trying to adopt rules about just how disruptive they can be. DGG ( talk ) 04:39, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm indenting this, because it's intended as a reply to JzG and Atsme as my personal view only, to indicate my view of the error of those who feel obliged to use WP to tell people what to do, though in that sense it is relevant to the question of whether WP should enforce a POV. It's not really a statement by an arb as an arb, but I don't know where else to put it. A key factor in medical results is the trust the patient has in the physician, and this can be similar in all forms of medicine, rational, or irrational. A patient who thinks the physician understands them and is really trying to help will usually feel better, if only because so many conditions are self--limiting. A patient who distrusts the healer will probably not take the prescribed treatment, whether it's a rational or irrational prescription. The placebo effect is real, and, astoundingly, even if the patient knows it's a placebo. Many of the conditions modern medicine purports to treat it actually has no proven effective treatment for; the most common conclusion in Cochrane, if you actually read it carefully instead of use it as a magic word, is that the evidence isn't really good enough. ( I pretend to be rational, but I have for many years taken drugs for conditions I know could be better treated by exercise, because I really hate exercise; I finally did start to exercise as well based essentially on the charisma of my very sports-minded cardiologist. ) CAM is in basically a fad, but it is also in some sense a rational response to uncertainty-though I note that one oft he studies quoted was for depression, notoriously one of the conditions for which no one medical treatment can be shown effective. And of course almost anything sensible or not, can appear in the peer-reviewed literature-, and any one who accepts it without knowing how to analyze it can not be trusted to instruct others.

A much better case for WP adopting a POV can be had with climate change. This is much closer than medicine to being an exact science. But again, any particular aspect in the science can have errors, and our entire view of things could be changed completely by any of a number of catastrophes. Pre COVID, I would also have said that this might be a case where we had to tell people what they should do, because the alternative was disaster--unlike medicine, individual choices could harm the entire word irreparably. We now know this is also true about public health, tho in my opinion the public health establishment forfeited much of its claim to credibility back when it advised people that gloves were more important than effective masks, because it knew there were insufficient masks, and it did not dare tell the actual truth, which was that all the available individual measures were close to useless. We need a certain amount of skepticism, because most other people who have every lived , thought that they too knew what the correct POV about the world was, and almost all of them we would almost all agree been proven wrong.

All we can do is give people the available data, and the information and resources to judge its credibility. We can say what people in various positions who ought to be well-informed think. We can not judge from their standing in the world whether what they think is correct. And we need a certain amount of modesty, because no matter how accurately and effectively we give people the information they need, they in practice on both public and personal issues are not going to act on it. (e.g. to go to a field where arb com has even less place, probably close to 100% of the people in the US know that the current president is a deliberate liar, and knowing that isn't going to affect how they vote in the election) We take ourselves too seriously. We're just an encyclopedia. DGG ( talk ) 03:51, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

JzG, there's too much here to discuss in this context, and perhaps we should take it off-line. But I agree that the way tolerance is extended to CAM remedies and supplements was a political decision based on no scientific principle whatsoever. As for placebos, --you are correct I'm going by tertiary sources & should do what I say anyone with the background to understand them should do, which is to read critically the actual research. DGG ( talk ) 00:31, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Petrarchan47. 1/. I've said myself, just above, that much of contemporary medicine as practiced is not actually scientific. (My personal bias is to prefer it nonetheless, because it alone of the systems being discussed has the potential to be so, and sometimes is) 2/That WP is mistakenly taken as a reliable source by most of the world is unfortunate. It casts on us a burden that we are by our basic mode of operation unable to fulfill. Unfortunately, all we can do about it is explain, and give disclaimers, and try in a reasonable way to not be grossly inaccurate, or at least give a range of sources. We do remain the only popularly accessed information source which at least tries to give references, and that part of our original mission remains valuable. (despite the perennial attempts at WP:RS to compromise honesty by permitting only those sources the majority there agree with.) I came here as an academic librarian, trying to revise things to make them more accurate, and replace bad references with good. . After a year or two, I realized that this was too difficult in our environment, and have focussed since on removing the worst of the garbage, and avoiding fields where people believe so strongly in the veracity of their favorite cult that dealing with it would mean too much fighting. As I did not come here convinced I could enlighten the world on what is the truth, I'm not horrified when we fail at it. DGG ( talk ) 06:04, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm late tot he party here, but i have been following this. On the question of whether DS applies here, I would say yes, either from the Pseudoscience case or the alternative medicine case. I can't see the committee making the editorial decision as to which topics actually are pseudoscience though. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by ProcrastinatingReader at 20:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Special:Permalink/820600857#Clarification_request:_Discretionary_Sanctions

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• ProcrastinatingReader (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

• 2018 ARCA + Motion
• 2020 ARCA

Whilst I still have some time I figured I'd leave this with you for clarification. Over past couple months I've spoken to several admins re. DS procedures, mostly relating to my work on simplifying/cleaning up community sanction templates (speaking of, gentle query on if you've come to a decision re. my July email yet?), as I didn't want to file a dozen clarification requests. This ARCA stems from a discussion I had with El C, here. Would ask if you could read that section (& possibly see the diffs of change on the linked templates) as it provides relevant context for this question. I understand that the 2020 ARCA asked a very similar question to what I ask now, but given the confusion (ref discussion & incorrect template wording for years) I think it's appropriate to ask for a clear judgement.

In the 2018 ARCA, the Committee passed a motion stating that additional page restrictions apply to enforce 1RR. Namely, this meant that enforcing 1RR would require awareness procedures (incl alerting) to be met. The reasoning by the arbs was a strong feeling of it being inherently unfair to enforce 1RR on articles when the editor may not have been aware of this. Thus, a talk and editnotice alone are no longer sufficient.

In the 2020 ARCA, the Committee was going towards the idea of: the 1RR restriction [does not] require a formal alert in order to be enforced. After close reading of both, I can only interpret this as 1RR by case remedy doesn't require any awareness, but 1RR by DS does?

Is that a correct understanding? If yes, doesn't it also logically follow that 1RR DS enforcement may use the full, broad range of discretionary sanctions enforcement mechanisms, whilst 1RR case remedy can only use increasing-duration blocks, per ArbCom standard procedures?

My next question is, is this two-tier approach to 1RR even logical? In practice, I don't think many admins see 1RR DS as different from 1RR Case Remedy. Both types of 1RR have the same basic awareness (a large talk notice and editnotice), so it's not really accurate to think editors will be more aware of one than the other. I'd also note that it is purely admin discretion on whether an article is "within the conflict area", so 1RR case remedy is also subject to the same level of "discretion", especially for sanctions like ARBPIA and Abortion which have very broad and discretionary scopes. Thus, it seems quite illogical to treat these two 'types' of 1RR as separate. I'd imagine this two-tier approach is also likely confusing & inaccessible to many editors.

@Bradv: that I follow, which is the assumption I made in para 3. The final two paragraphs of my statement carry on from that assumption and I think those are still relevant questions to ask here, as I think they're the direct consequences of that interpretation. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:28, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Bradv: so, per your comments & the first sentence of GW's comment, what is the status of non-ARBPIA4 1RR case remedies (namely GMO & abortion)? Do those require alerting to enforce, or are they the same as ARBPIA4? Also, re para4, is it correct to assume 1RR case remedies (w/o alert) can only be enforced by blocks? Would non-block enforcement actions relating to 1RR (eg topic bans, other restrictions) require an alert + DS action instead? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:09, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DS...🤯 - also see above. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:17, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde93, could the reason for lengthy AE requests possibly stem from confusing sanctions or possibly even WP:POV creep? Is it possible that an admin might be hesitant to take action against a truly disruptive editor because they are of like minds and/or have established longtime alliances in a particular topic area? NPOV is not an easy task, particularly in controversial articles. DGG nailed it: "There is no way of avoiding a first or second advantage in all RR rules.. and DS makes the unfairness all the harder to adjust, and all the easier to perpetuate." He also made a valid point in pseudoscience that applies equally to almost all controversial topics: The "broadly construed" language though originally a good idea, is now in practice used as a device to sweep as much as possible into the same bin where arb com previously decided we need not follow NPOV, but what we think as scientists ought to be the POV. Substitute "scientists" with political party, or gamers. Behavior may be determined to be disruptive simply because it is an opposing view, keeping in mind Ideological bias on Wikipedia. Mainstream media even recognized WP's problem, and it dates back several years as evidenced in this 2008 WaPo article, a 2016 article in The Atlantic, and more recently in The Intercept, and Fox News. Why allow it to continue, and for what benefit? ArbCom has granted individual admins power that ArbCom doesn't even possess as a committee, and I'm speaking of granting irreversible unilateral actions at an admin's sole discretion. We're losing editors and are well on our way to homogenizing topic areas, which is basically what the AE Log represents to me. Maybe NPOV, V, NEWSORG and RECENTISM are what need a closer look - remove the ambiguities, tighten the policies, and enforce them. Just food for thought. Oh, and Vanamonde I want to add that I absolutely agree with your conclusion in this discussion, and along that same line, I highly commend El C for his thoughtful considerations in the highly controversial AP topic areas. One last comment, aren't we glad this isn't about infoboxes? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was not anticipating commenting here, as the topic is somewhat outside my wheelhouse, but I'm honestly dumbfounded by DGG's assertion that dealing with disruptive editors from our contentious areas will be less work than managing the DS system that allows uninvolved admins to deal with them. DGG, have you looked at the AELOG lately? Most AE reports are comparable in their length to an ARCA request, and there's far more of them; not to mention the hundreds of yearly actions that individual administrators take outside of AE. ARBCOM has taken upwards of three weeks to handle one clarification request, above. How would it fare if everything currently handled under DS was thrown in its lap? Vanamonde (Talk) 15:20, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• The 2020 ARCA was specifically in reference to the 1RR restriction in effect for the WP:ARBPIA4 topic area. In this case it is not a discretionary sanction, but a general prohibition directly authorized by ArbCom, and therefore does not require a formal alert. The 2018 ARCA, on the other hand, was about 1RR as one of the restrictions commonly enacted by administrators as part of the discretionary sanctions system. I know this is confusing, but these two discussions are about two different things. – bradv🍁 23:58, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • To expound on this a bit further: the 1RR prohibition in effect for the ARBPIA is accompanied by a 500/30 restriction. This means that editors who do not have 500 edits and 30 days' tenure can't edit these articles at all, much less edit war on them. This makes the bar for entry to these articles high enough that we can expect people to be familiar with the restrictions in this area, and when disruption occurs it can be dealt with quickly. However, as I said at that ARCA, this rule doesn't necessitate a heavy-handed or punitive approach. A simple note that 1RR applies in this area should be all it takes to prevent a good-faith editor from inadvertently igniting an edit war, and applying 1RR to everybody, without requiring extra formalities for some, helps to keep the collaborative editing process fair and balanced. – bradv🍁 00:10, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • ProcrastinatingReader, regarding the last part of your question and your last comment, the reasons for enacting 1RR as a general prohibition for this topic area are complex, and would require a thorough reading of the related cases and amendment requests to fully understand. The simplest answer I can give is that this system is felt to be simpler and more consistent than discretionary sanctions. As I wrote above, a blanket 1RR and 500/300 restriction, together, provide a level playing field for the entire topic area, without the rules of engagement changing from article to article (as they do in, say, American Politics). While I certainly wouldn't advocate taking this same approach on every contentious topic area, there is considerable value in keeping things simple, and without evidence that this remedy is failing to work as intended I have to assume it is accomplishing its goals. It's also worth noting that the "discretion" involved here in applying these general restrictions is different from discretionary sanctions – in the case of ARBPIA articles the templates and edit notices can be applied by any editor, not just by uninvolved administrators. And the only consideration in adding the templates is that it be part of the topic area, not whether disruption has occurred or is likely to occur. – bradv🍁 00:44, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • ProcrastinatingReader, ARBGMO does not require an alert for 1RR to apply, but the abortion restriction is a little more complicated (see the ARCA below). As for enforcement, blocks can technically be issued even on a first offense, but as I said previously, this is not and should not be common. Topic bans and restrictions are not enforcement actions, but are additional sanctions (a.k.a. bans), and can only be enacted under DS or as a result of a community discussion, per Wikipedia:Banning policy#Authority to ban. – bradv🍁 01:16, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I would agree with bradv that the 2020 ARCA was intended to address specifically the ARBPIA4 1RR, not all 1RR imposed as a result of a case. While I do think it can be reasonable to enforce the 1RR even without an explicit warning in that topic area (particularly because of the additional 500/30 restriction), I also think admins should be sure to apply common sense. As NYB and others said at the ARCA, The bottom line is that an editor should never be blocked for making an edit that would normally be acceptable but violates a discretionary sanctions restriction, if there's a reasonable doubt as to whether the editor was aware of the restriction. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:23, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Echoing what Bradv said. The topic-wide 1RR remedies imposed as a result of a case do not require the alerts that AC/DS require, but I'd expect it to be fairly rare that people are sanctioned via those 1RR without at least a quick heads up that 1RR applies. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:19, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• As others have noted above, it remains my strong position that an editor must never be sanctioned for violating a special rule that he or she was not aware of. Beyond that, the lack of clarity being discussed in this thread supports another strong position of mine, which is that the rules surrounding discretionary sanctions have become too complicated and confusing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:15, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• There is no way of avoiding a first or second advantage in all RR rules.. and DS makes the unfairness all the harder to adjust, and all the easier to perpetuate. We need a new approach altogether. My idea is that the committee, which is electing to regulate conduct that ordinary admin procedures cannot handle, should do the necessary regulation of conduct rather than instruct the admins to do it a more complicated way. --It will be less work than the repeated dealing with issues such as ddressed by this request and the others requests here at the moment . Since the problems have not been solved, we are presumably doing something wrong--either we as arb com, or we at WP more generally DGG ( talk ) 04:33, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde93 the delays are because only the most complicated cases reach us. But it was not my idea that we'd take over all DS & AE requests, because with DS gone, there would be many fewer such requests--they'd be taken care of by normal admin action that didn't require arb com at all. But I agree that a good enforcement scheme is very difficult to devise--the only aspect I am sure about is that the current one does not remotely qualify, and we need to start over. I'm not set on my own ideas of how to replace it, though I have several; another one of them is the rule I apply to myself in almost all disputes, that nobody contribute more than twice to the entire discussion--but this would not be applicable to friendly cooperative work, & I haven't worked out that part yet. I recognize that almost everyone likely to come to the DR part of WP would find it quite unsettling to their usual way of working, and that would be my main argument for it. DGG ( talk ) 04:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by ProcrastinatingReader at 21:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Abortion arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• ProcrastinatingReader (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Callanecc (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• [5]

It appears in 2011, the community added sanctions for the entire abortion topic area. This included a topic-wide 1RR.

ArbCom later took over the Abortion sanctions in WP:ARBAB. They authorised DS for the topic area.

In 2015, a clarification request was made asking whether 1RR was to be made a case remedy, as it was enacted by the community. 5 arbs agreed to this. I don't believe that was a majority at the time, and there was no motion made, and there remains no amendment to the original WP:ARBAB case to specify 1RR exists for the topic area, and if so, what the scope of 1RR should be. Thus I don't believe that ARCA duly resulted in any change to the status quo. At the time, a clerk (Callanecc) noted that ArbCom did not take over the 1RR.

I have brought this to ARCA following advice from clerks at their noticeboard. The talk notice, {{ArbCom sanctions - abortion}}, and the editnotice {{AbortionGSEN}} indicates the 1RR is a ArbCom remedy. However, Wikipedia:General sanctions/Abortion/Log says it has been superseded, whilst Wikipedia:General_sanctions#Arbitration_Committee-authorised_sanctions says "See this November–December 2015 clarification request, whereby the previous community 1RR was incorporated into the ArbCom DS". A topic-wide 1RR can't really be part of a DS?

Can the Committee please clarify:

• Has the Committee terminated the 1RR remedy from the community's 2011 abortion sanctions?
  • If yes, has it been replaced by an ArbCom topic-wide 1RR remedy?
    • If yes, should a motion be passed to amend WP:ARBAB, adding such a remedy and deciding on its scope?
    • If no, (but the 1RR from the community is still terminated), then I presume 1RR should be applied on an article-by-article basis? And in such a case, what's to happen to any 1RR enforcement blocks/sanctions prior to this ARCA?

Just a note that split logs overlapping with an ArbCom DS aren't completely abnormal, e.g. WP:GS/IPAK. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:26, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Worm That Turned indeed, but what about any 1RRs after the case?
  I don't believe it's possible for that topic-wide 1RR to be a DS, as I think Thryduulf's statement implies, since (as the ARCA above is suggesting) 1RR case remedy and 1RR DS have totally different requirements. Even if that difference is desired here, it would not be compatible with the community authorisation. DS is somewhat the opposite of NOTBURO in general, such a decision needlessly complicates the system even more and creates inconsistencies with eg IPAK imv. I don't feel like this question should be overcomplicated: do we need a topic-wide 1RR for abortion or not? If so, please just amend the case and make it a normal 1RR like every other case, for consistency and clarity, rather than make abortion a special case. If we don't need one, then some kind of collective statement clarifying that ArbCom doesn't have a 1RR in place would seem helpful to put the matter to rest. Personally, considering WP:AELOG (zero topic 1RR sanctions in 5 years; two DS 1RR sanctions in 2019), I feel the 2nd option is better.

This is hazy in my memory but my thinking is something like this. In the case, ArbCom didn't mention the community-imposed 1RR restriction but did take over the community-authorised discretionary sanctions (number 2 in the ANI proposal). The Committee needs to take affirmative action to override the community and they didn't in this case. Additionally, they also imposed 1RR on individual editors which wouldn't have been necessary if they took over the 1RR restriction. The clarification request from 2015 asked where community-imposed 1RR violation be logged and the agreement amongst the arbs was that only 1 log should be used (for simplicity and NOTBURO). I see three options for the Committee here: (1) take over the community-imposed 1RR restriction (effectively as a drafting slip from the original case), (2) vacate the community-imposed 1RR restriction (effectively taking it over as a drafting slip in the original case, then vacating it as no longer needed), or (3) leaving the status quo (1RR stays as a community-imposed restriction but is logged at WP:AELOG for simplicity (and NOTBURO)). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:29, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I find it amazing that the ARBCOM at the time felt they had the authority to make retroactive decisions with regard to general sanctions, but that's neither here nor there.

The question might be worth asking, but I would note, that if ARBCOM has not implemented a 1RR remedy, then I'm not sure they have the authority merely to terminate a community one as a sanction. There is of course a question against this that they could have implemented one in 2015, and removed it now, which would have had the same effect. However, they missed that boat: just doing it at once is akin to ARBCOM just deciding they felt a community sanction was a bad idea and canning it, rather than as part of a conduct method. Nosebagbear (talk) 08:35, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The 2015 clarification request asked a very specific question - where should violations of the 1RR be logged. The five arbs who answered (I was one of them) said in the central DS log. This, and the other comments in the discussion, imply that everyone was, and should continue to, treat it as a discretionary sanction under the provisions of the arbcom-authorised discretionary sanctions. Thryduulf (talk) 23:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• It might be worth making explicit that any existing specific remedies placed under the DS authorisations, including 1RR restrictions applied to specific articles are not affected and that it also does not preclude the placing of any new 1RR restrictions in this topic area. Thryduulf (talk) 21:52, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Is the community-authorized 1RR restriction still necessary? A look through WP:AELOG for the past number of years shows 1RR applied to certain articles as a discretionary sanction (such as Talk:Abortion in the United States), but it doesn't show anyone being sanctioned for violating the general 1RR restriction. I suspect that this blanket remedy is no longer being used, and if my assumption is correct, perhaps we should vacate it for simplicity and consistency. – bradv🍁 23:50, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Hm, this is a bit of complex question. The way it reads to me is that the ArbCom replaced the general sanctions with discretionary sanctions, but did not address the 1RR. Therefore I would say community-imposed 1RR in the topic area remains in place. The clarification request was about where sanctions should be logged, and it seemed to be agreed that the DS log made sense so there weren't two separate logs for the same topic area, but I wouldn't say that as a result of that clarification request the ArbCom took over the 1RR—that would have to be done more formally, I think. As for what to do now, the ArbCom could either decide to formally take on the 1RR restriction as an amendment to the abortion case, or we could leave it as is. Given the general disuse, I'm leaning towards the latter. However I would oppose us vacating the community-imposed 1RR, as I think that's a decision that should be left to the community. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:30, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• To my eyes, The discretionary sanction remedy states All sanctions enacted prior to this case under the terms of the community authorization shall be logged under this case as though they had been enacted under the new authorization. I would therefore have thought that the 1RR application should be considered under the Arbcom banner. What's more, as DS are in place, I would prefer a blanket 1RR is removed, and applied where needed. Worm^TT(talk) 08:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't have a strong view on the specific clarification that is being requested, other than to suggest we not do anything that makes the rules governing discretionary and general sanctions any more complicated than they already are. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:17, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted - Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 16:53, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support

1. Proposed, in the absence of any evidence that this is still required or commonly used. – bradv🍁 15:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
2. Per bradv. No indication that DS is not sufficient. Regards SoWhy 18:40, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
3. we seem to be the right place for determinng conflicts between procedures like this one. DGG ( talk ) 04:25, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
4. Maxim_(talk) 19:27, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
5. The procedural question (whether we have the authority to vacate the 1RR restriction or whether the community should be asked to do so) is a close one, but based on the history that's been summarized above, I think the ArbCom decision is broad enough to allow us to make this change. I would be hesitant to do something that could even arguably be construed as overruling the community if the 1RR rule were still being actively used, but it seems that it isn't and that this is more of a "clean-up" request than anything. If any problems recur, 1RR can be restored as needed under the authorization for discretionary sanctions. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
6. I understand the logic of the opposes but I basically agree with NYB, this is more along the lines of cleaning up an old mess, as opposed to overruling community will. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:47, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
7. I understand the position of those opposing, while recognizing there have been no additional concerns raised following a note to AN about this open motion. –xeno^talk 12:42, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
8. weakly (I nearly voted in the oppose column) but it strikes me as simplifying things slightly by taking over the 1RR Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:48, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
9. I also see this as uncontroversial tidying, and it's cleaner if we do it. – Joe (talk) 07:46, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
10. I believe this was the intention and reasonable housekeeping Worm^TT(talk) 10:04, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

1. Per my above comment, since this was imposed by the community I think the decision whether to vacate it should be left to the community as well. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:54, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
2. I agree with GW in this instance. If it's a community sanction they can remove it themselves. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 20:03, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

• Should we should note at WP:AN that this is being considered? –xeno^talk 14:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's a good idea. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:31, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • (clerk) I've gone ahead and left a note. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 18:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by Barkeep49 at 22:26, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Civility in infobox discussions arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. [6]
2. Role of consensus in arbitration enforcement

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Barkeep49 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• HAL333 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Cassianto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Mclay1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SchroCat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Guerillero (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• HAL333
• Cassianto
• Mclay1
• SchroCat
• JzG
• Vanamonde93
• Guerillero

Information about amendment request

• Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all discussions about infoboxes and to edits adding, deleting, collapsing, or removing verifiable information from infoboxes.

• Whether discrestionary sanctions should be enacted against editors other than I-82

• Role of consensus in arbitration enforcement

• Whether discretionary sanctions were correctly utilized based on the consensus of uninvolved administrators when the AE request was closed (clause from Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration enforcement)

On September 1, Ritchie filed an AE request for I-82-I about an Infobox RfC at Frank Sinatra. In subsequent discussion, diffs were brought forward concerning the actions of HAL333, Mclay1, Cassianto, and SchroCat. On September 4 TonyBallioni issued a Checkuser block against I-82-I for disruptive editing while logged out. On September 5, Cassianto opened a thread at ANI accusing Hal of harassment. Approximately four hours later, JzG closed the AE thread with an infobox Topic Ban on I-82-I. Prior to that close, 9 uninvolved administrators (including myself and JzG but not counting Tony) had participated in the discussion. At least three administrators, myself, Vanamonde, and Guerillero had supported sanctions against some of the other editors. A fourth, Ealdgyth, indicated that she saw incivility but did not wish to deal with the people involved [7]. The other uninvolved administrators had not commented on these sanctions pro or con - one administrator feeling that sanctions should not only be applied to one side and two of the uninvolved administrators were participating in a discussion about whether Guerillero's use of "Ok boomer" towards Cassianto was a slur and not Infobox Civility itself. Subsequent discussion with JzG clarified that he had indeed closed the thread as no sanction against any other editors. As this seems to fly in the face of the considered consensus of multiple uninvolved administrators, with ArbCom being the only place to apply an AE decision, and given the sprawling nature of this conflict (which also includes, at minimum, [8] and [9]), I am filing this appeal in regards to both Infobox editor conduct and JzG's close of the AE thread. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:26, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• @Kingofaces43: according to a previous ArbCom case, the decision to close at AE with no sanction is is a decision that can only be appealed to ArbCom. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration_enforcement#Dismissing_an_enforcement_request_(alternate). As such those of us who felt other sanctions shouldbe levied cannot apply those sanctions.Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:34, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• @Newyorkbrad: I am glad Vanamonde replied first because they said my feelings better than I would have. Pinging you to formalize what I am looking for from ArbCom here and why I think in the name of comity we don't just move on. I think this gets at what you were asking also Kingofaces43. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:46, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Newyorkbrad, the people I had mentioned were Mclay1, HAL, Cassianto, and Schrocat (who I know is gone but I have hope might return one day even if under a slightly different account name owing to a password scramble). HAL, Cassianto, and Schrocat have all been a part of Infobox disputes before. So their promise to "stay away" from Sinatra is good - I mean that sincerely - but the sanctions in my mind were more about whatever the next Infobox skirmish is going to be as it is Sinatra. So the only one I would be willing to reconsider in light of a kept promise to stay away is Mclay1. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:55, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Newyorkbrad: I have always thought that clear. What isn't clear is the ability of an editor to unilaterally shutdown a conversation of colleagues about whether sanction is appropriate currently rather than in the future. You seem to be telling me that it is appropriate which is a reasonable outcome. That will inform my choice to try and get involved in thorny AE discussions in the future. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:50, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Vanamonde93: I think what Newyorkbrad is saying is that if there were new misconduct the old conduct could still be considered when forming a sanction. So essentially no editor could be sanctioned for anything that happened at Sinatra (or previously) but if there is misconduct again at the next infobox front then Sinatra and earlier could be considered when responding. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:42, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• As to bradv's suggestion that a full case could be beneficial, maybe? I mean we have two different administrators whose actions have been criticized by a range of editors. We also have Cassianto feeling that the ANI thread did not offer him from the harassment he was perceiving from HAL and which wasn't really being discussed at AE. However, I'm not sure, as evidenced by the desire of many people here for this to go away (I mean I got more than one good laugh when I explained to some people close to me what DS is and that we have DS for things like American Politics, Palestine/Israel, Race & Intellegence, and Infoboxes) that a full case is going to bring things forward that an ARCA would not. Now if the structure of a case would be helpful in dealing with these desperate parts then sure go for a case. Just don't expect it to turn into too much more than what has already been presented here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:46, 8 September 2020 (UTC
• JzG I had formally notified everyone but Cassianto who had indicated to me such a notification was unnecessary. I agree with you that such notification is important. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:37, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am so thoroughly tired of this. The original ArbCom request was against I-82 and no one else. That editor retired, abused IP accounts, and was then CU blocked. Case closed. Additionally, SchroCat retired due to this whole ordeal. Can we please just stop here and not lose anymore editors.

Since being warned of the sanctions, I have not responded to a single opposing editor on that thread. I only asked an editor who supported the proposal to clarify his statement. Beyond that, I reverted edits by 73.193.59.165, who was repeatedly closing the RFC and claiming that there was a consensus to uncollapse the infobox (which they did and I reverted). I reported them for vandalism, and they were banned. A diehard pro-infoboxer (Which I'm not - I've gotten several of my works up to featured status without an IB) would have sat back and watched gleefully. I have agreed with SchroCat and Cassianto before, siding with them at Dispute Resolution and have even opposed the addition of an infobox with them.

Regarding the ANI discussion opened against me, here was my defense:

Earlier today, Cassianto referred to me, LEPRICAVARK, and two administrators as "messers". I was not familiar with this term: Cassianto often uses British slang. Oxford's Lexico defines it as "A person who makes a mess, or who messes about; a muddler, a bungler." According to Urban Dict, it is "Irish slang for a sloppy or messy person; someone who fails to take things seriously; a hopeless amateur, a gobdaw." Wiktionary defines it as "someone who messes". Accordingly, I respectfully asked Cassianto to strike through this personal attack. Cassianto was annoyed by my pinging him (which plenty of other people were doing at arbcom) and left a message claiming that I was harassing him. I responded courteously, without a ping. Cassianto then corrects the personal attack to "messrs", which, according to Google, is "used as a title to refer formally to more than one man simultaneously, or in names of companies." I found this a clever solution and it actually made me laugh. The barnstar of good humor was an expression of good faith. I was being genuine and met no ill will. I figured it would ease up tensions, but here we are....

• Note I have previously given Cassianto a barnstar after a disagreement, and it seemed to have improved our relations. I was trying to do the same thing again and assumed he would respond similarly to last time.

Everyone has moved on. I have not revisited any infobox discussions. There is no reason that we can't just let sleeping dogs lie. ~ HAL333 22:53, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Genuine confusion This enforcement request was brought because people were edit warring over collapsing a section of the RFC (I was not involved in that). That has been resolved. Why is this continuing? Also, why is SchroCat included in this? He has scrambled his password and no longer edits on Wikipedia. Any sanctions or penalties directed to him would be ineffectual and for image only. Sysops have expressed that they would want to penalize the supposed pro- and anti-infoboxers equally. Cassianto has already been placed under sanctions. How can this be impartial if sanctions would just be applied to two "pro"-infoboxers? Furthermore, other editors commented just as much (and perhaps were much more uncivil) as I did in the RFC: just look at the discussion. (I should note that my colorful signature doesn't help lol) Why am I being singled out? ~ HAL333 02:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This whole thing seems pointless. The issue is over. I was not aware at the time of any specific rules about infobox discussions (which I'm still not clear on) and only made a few comments. I got into a very short and very mild disagreement with SchroCat, who was being quite rude to a number of people, but that conversation is long over and he's retired, so it's no longer an issue. My involvement in the discussion was not in any way unusual for a discussion on Wikipedia. As soon as I was informed of the infobox discussion rules (long before the ArbCom in question), I stopped commenting. I don't care about it anymore and have no need for sanctions. I have no intention of continuing the argument. I agree with HAL333. MClay1 (talk) 02:27, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

An AE was opened against I-82-I. That user subsequently used logged-out editing to evade scrutiny and was indefinitely blocked. Others used the AE filing as a vehicle for discussing (eentirely valid) long-standing issues with other editors who were not, I think, originally notified of the AE filing.

It seems to me that the subject of the original filing is effectively complete with the indefinite block of I-82-I. I have no strong view of what dispute resolution processes should be undertaken in respect of other editors discussed in the thread, other than that there should be some, but it seems to me that an AE on an obvious bad actor should not morph into sanctions discussions on long-standing good-faith editors without at least some effort to de-escalate or resolve the dispute. This would be my view regardless of the personalities involved.

As I said at the time and subsequently, if anyone wants to undo the close or spin out the separate discussions they are welcome to do so. I have no beef with any of the other parties here, admin or otherwise. I closed the AE in good faith because the outcome in respect of the original subject was clear, and it seems to me that AE discussions should be narrowly focused (because enforcement). I could be wrong. I am happy to leave this to others to decide because my views on the secondary parties are not strong, and because of a sudden worsening of C7 radiculopathy which means I am as of yesterday in too much pain to deal with this any further. Guy (help! - typo?) 07:25, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your patience, friends, the pain has subsided over the last couple of days.

I have proposed a change to the admin guidance at WT:AE. This entire thing comes from two groups of people looking at the same facts from different bases. I closed the AE because the result for I-82-I was obvious, and he was the named party. I took insufficient note of the way the thread had morphed, partly because I was viewing it in the context of a request against I-82-I. This was probably naive. That said, I think there is a basic fairness issue about sanctioning other parties without the formal notification requirement, and I hope that I am not alone in this.

If we look at WP:RFAR, there is a process for adding parties. At WP:AE, there is not. I'd internalised the idea that parties have to be formally added in arbitration, and I recognise that this may be incorrect in this context - and whether it's right or wrong, others may see it differently or may be viewing this through an arc that intersects with AE but is not solely AE (Vanamonde has made some good points here and recently pointed out to me some precedent for not viewing AE as I have always viewed it). Guy (help! - typo?)

I will not rehash the summary Barkeep49 has provided, but just add the following points. First, editors who are parties to a dispute brought to AE are explicitly also subject to sanctions, assuming they have been appropriately notified, which isn't in question here. Second, in this AE report, there was agreement among at least three administrators as to sanctions against editors other than the one being reported. Third, JzG's closure, while made in good faith, clearly does not represent the consensus of administrators at AE. Fourth, the issue has been discussed with JzG, and he has stated that he has no objections to further discussions about the other editors, but not that he was willing to reconsider the closure of this discussion. ARBCOM has previously rules that a single admin may overrule a consensus of other admins recommending no action to take an action at AE; does this now mean that a single admin can overrule a consensus of other admins recomending action, to prevent any action from being taken? In other words, if I (or Barkeep49, or Guerillero) wish to implement the actions we agreed upon, are we prevented from doing so by the minutiae of procedure? Vanamonde (Talk) 01:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• As a general principle, I'd agree with JzG that a report against someone editing in bad faith shouldn't result in widespread sanctions. In this case, most of the problematic behavior I found occurred before the bad-faith editor even appeared on the scene, and so the subsequent block of I-82-I does not affect my assessment of anything; and I don't see why it should affect anyone else's. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• @Newyorkbrad: I don't think anyone wants the AE opened again, but if that would be the only was for sanctions to be applied against the other editors involved, then what you are in effect saying is that any administrator can overrule a consensus of their colleagues to prevent discretionary sanctions from being placed on any problematic editor. If that's not what you mean, then any administrator still has the ability to impose sanctions for the behavior discussed at AE; which is the clarity I am looking for. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Newyorkbrad: At this moment, I would not impose a sanction, because the principle participants have walked away from the conflict. I am firmly of the opinion that at the time the AE discussion was closed, the proposed sanctions were necessary, and that any willingness to step back on the part of the participants was because of the unfavorable attention they received here and at ANI. This feud went on for months, despite several attempts by uninvolved participants to calm things down. I would be very unsurprised to see further disruption, and if that occurs, any sanctions would need to take the episode discussed at AE into account to be useful. As things stand, it seems as though any sanctions cannot be levied on the basis of the behavior examined at AE already. There is also the issue of precendent; going forward, I would be much less inclined to engage with a contentious AE report, knowing that even a consensus among me and my colleagues could be overruled by a single admin. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:06, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Newyorkbrad: I don't think that's obvious, based on the wording of previous rulings about AE; whether the closure applied to other editors or not was also not clarified until we came here (JzG have since discussed the matter and are no longer at loggerheads over this, but he didn't actually answer my request to clarify this before the ARCA request was filed). Other users on JzG's talk page also argued that an admin placing a sanction on the other users from AE would be in violation of an ARBCOM decision. So, I appreciate your clarification, but I do think it was necessary to come here for that clarification. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:23, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Barkeep49: I think I was disagreeing more with the second part of what NYB said, in that there did seem to be serious disagreement as to what the conclusion of the first AE meant, and it was not clarified till we got here. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Rather to my own surprise, I think a full case may not be the worst idea. A situation like this shouldn't need a full case. There's no substantively new behavioral issue here; AE can deal with it, but only if the discretionary sanctions are allowed to operate as they should. Unfortunately, as with many of our previous civility-related cases (GGTF; TRM) this has just exposed the deep-running rift among administrators with respect to how interactions between editors are perceived and responded to, and that has led to the enforcement of ARBCOM sanctions being hamstrung. If, in dealing with this sort of dispute, individual administrators face difficulties not only with the editors whose behavior is being investigated but also their fellow administrators, it's unsurprising that the dispute seems intractable, and is going to end up in ARBCOM's lap. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:06, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Neither SchroCat nor Cassianto meets the formal requirements for a RTV; SchroCat's actions were being discussed here, and Cassianto is under infobox probation. I would be fine with IAR RTV, if that is implemented with the understanding that they are truly leaving, and would explicitly not be eligible for a clean start. SchroCat's use of an IP suggests this isn't really the case, and that's unsurprising to me; if you've been invested in this community for as long as SC has, walking away isn't easy. And for the record, I do not want either of them to leave; they're fine writers, and will be missed. But we should not be letting them "walk away" in a manner that may make things worse in the future because they cannot resist the temptation to return, but aren't able to do so in a legitimate way; at the very least, we need to make it clear that if they were to return, they would have to create an account and disclose the connection publicly. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:56, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My only thought is that JzG's close ran in the face of the consensus of the admins there. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:57, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• @Bradv: I don't think this rises to the level of a whole case --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:46, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Maxim: there was also the review in 2016 --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 19:52, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Ritchie333: this would be easier to believe if one of them wasn't editing as an IP within hours of vanishing. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Can one of the arbs collect the CU data for both SchroCat and Cassianto and either post it to ArbWiki or CUWiki so they can be identified in the future? SchroCat is already a double clean start and was IP socking. I CU blocked Cassianto about 5 years ago for editing while logged out to avoid scrutiny. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:34, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion (as a mere observer of info-box disagreements for more than a decade), any debate on info-boxes should be ignored by the entire community of editors. In most cases, the relevance of including or omitting an info-box is low. Good editors are wasting time and energy on something insignificant, but that doesn't mean they need to be punished for their exasperation. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:53, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See also Wehwalt and Davey2010's comments. Was this really worth it? ---Sluzzelin talk 20:31, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll wait for other statements before I get into deeper specifics, but this has been a rather aggressive, tense dispute with many noticeboard visits over the past few months. I highly encourage arbcom to look into it. Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk🌴Help out at CCI!} 23:03, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• @Bradv: I think this does rise to the level of a full case. This has been an issue that the community has not been able to resolve through discussion and AE, and I think these disputes will continue even if this one had died down a bit. Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk🌴Help out at CCI!} 15:51, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, it's not really clear from your initial comments, but what is the issue being presented here that needs ArbCom? JzG closed the AE because the main subject was blocked and made no other sanctions that would have to be "overridden". If any admin felt someone else involved needed to be sanctioned through DS, they simply just need to do so and do not need AE consensus to do that. If anyone felt more discussion was needed to fine-tune a specific sanction on another editor, there's nothing stopping you or anyone else from opening another AE focused on the editor(s), and that's probably a better more focused option anyways to piece apart multi-editor issues. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:24, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, to be more clear, I'm wondering why you feel that principle applies here (and hopefully give arbs something even more pointed to address)? That might apply if the close dealt with more than the named subject of the AE or if I-82-I wasn't sanctioned and you thought they should be. Right now, only I-82-I sanctions would fall under the dismissing principle if that had happened. No one else's behavior was the subject of the close. At least from my read of the comments, it looks like you inadvertently set yourself down a slippery slope thinking you couldn't act. JzG's close looked pretty standard in the sense of the named editor has been sanctioned, other issues in the subject can be dealt with separately if warranted. That's how AE has always worked when multi-party issues come up that don't get a sanction all at the same time, which is why I'm finding some logic presented here at odds with how AE normally works.

Simply because the behavior of others was mentioned (and how often is it not?) in an AE request, that does not mean a request being closed against the primary named editor gives immunity to those other potential problem editors in the subject that were not addressed in the close. Editors just need to a bring a separate case focused on the specific editor if they feel DS enforcement is warranted. The infobox drama is foreign to me, but I agree it looks like there are problems outside of I-82-I. If that is dismissed, then the principle applies there for reopening. Otherwise, this approach is setting up problem editors to say their behavior was already "dismissed" at AE citing an early tangential request not focused on them where they were discussed.

Also, none of the above matters if you personally feel as an admin DS should be enacted as AE isn't needed to do that. Even if a request was closed as no action, you can later look at the (assumedly) partial evidence on the other editor(s) there while taking in other background information to place a sanction. "No action" is the default of every admin the moment they are made aware of a potential issue, so there's nothing to really override there (kind of a null hypothesis problem). The dismissing principle seems to be focused on reopening requests rather than making a no action decision on periphery editors (relative to the AE request) prevent future placing of sanctions. If arbs really do intend the latter, especially when it's not the main subject of a request, then it would be good to clarify. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:22, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please offer a minute of silence, and think about if anything of this matters. Jerome and I were friends from 2010. We disagreed on infoboxes about composers (not about compositions), but always respectfully. Amendment request: let's forget about sanctions, and imagine any comment came from a friend who has good intentions. I believe that if we all did, these unholy wars were over. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:24, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I reinstate the comment. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:30, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The AE report-in-question had morphed into something it wasn't suppose to be. The individual who was the topic of that report, was blocked. PS - Can't we get back to the ongoing RFC at old Blue Eyes? GoodDay (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Am I being too bold in recommending that this ARCA request be rejected? GoodDay (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, so now two editors have retired over this infobox stuff. I hope they return or un-vanish soon, which ever name they choose to reappear under. GoodDay (talk) 14:43, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to the general issue of consensus at AE would be to establish a principle that while a consensus is not required to act, administrators may not unilaterally act contrary to a consensus if one does exist, nor close a discussion in a manner that prevents other administrators from acting in accordance with that consensus (e.g. closing as "no action" if there is a consensus for action, or closing as "action" when there is consensus that no action is required). This would not compel admins to act - if they disagree with a consensus they may express their view in the discussion or simply leave it for some other admin. (I am explicitly not opining here on how this relates to the specific discussion in question). Thryduulf (talk) 01:00, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In case anyone is interested, I have been contacted off-wiki by SchroCat and Cassianto, who have both decided to quit the project and courtesy vanish, which I have enacted. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:56, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I reject the suggestion that vanishing can be used to avoid scrutiny; to that end I have blocked the IP in the section below for blatant sockpuppetry. Furthermore, in my view Cassianto and SchroCat should now be considered de-facto banned, and I will support any admin who feels the need to enforce that view with blocks. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 05:42, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MJL: I'm not sure I understand your concerns entirely, but I keep coming back to this seminal piece of work : "One who sometimes makes good edits, but endlessly bickers, threatens, insults, whines, and is eventually banned, will have taken hundreds of hours from other users who would have better spent that time building the encyclopedia." Specifically, while I have tried to work with Cassianto, I am utterly sick and tired of the way he dishes out personal attacks to other people yet complains vociferously when somebody does the same to him, and really wish he could just ignore people. Furthermore, I once blocked Cassianto for edit-warring and personal attacks; I got abuse heaped on my head and the block reversed by another admin about three hours later. So, you might think I haven't maybe taken as strong as action as I could have done in order to keep the peace and avoid being called an "abusive admin", but I feel in this instance, blocks and sanctions seem to cause more problems than they solve. As Vanamonde has said, and as you suggest here, increasing temperature and sanctions at WP:ARBINFOBOX2 doesn't seem to have done any good, and the community in general is at a complete loss for how to proceed. The RTV was a way of trying to remove them from the project with the minimum of fuss and with their full agreement; it was never intended to be a "get out of Arbcom free" card, and if they think this is a mechanism for them to "lie low" for a bit and come back editing as if nothing had happened without anyone's concerns being addressed, well more fool them. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:38, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Joe Roe: As per User:Ritchie333#One revert guarantee : "Admins, if you think an administrative action (including, but not limited to protecting or deleting a page, or blocking a user) is not an improvement, just undo it." Do you want me to revert the RTVs? As I understand it, both Cassianto and SchroCat have scrambled their passwords and won't be using those accounts again (though I can't prove this). By "good standing" I simply mean they were not blocked or banned at the point the action was taken. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:38, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Joe Roe: I won’t be able to get to this until probably Tuesday; I’m away for a long weekend at the mo and need an hour in front of the computer with no distractions so I don’t mess up. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:18, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Joe Roe: I can't revert the vanishing of SchroCat, as it complains the name clashes with Schrocat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (note the lower case 'c'). Can you (or anyone else) offer further advice? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:03, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Maxim: Okay, thanks, I've reverted the RTV on SchroCat. I'm currently working on the assumption there is no consensus to RTV SchroCat (as two Arbs have objected) and there is a possible consensus to RTV Cassianto (as one Arb has objected but one has not). Before doing anything else, I think it would be helpful if more Arbs gave their opinion on this so the action taken has a more accurate reflection of what would be considered best for the encyclopedia. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:13, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say I was surprised by the vanishing given they are named parties in this, with one being considered specifically for sanctions. Also I think the deletion of their talk pages are probably inappropriate as well. PackMecEng (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ritchie I am going to quote parts of WP:RTV with some bolding and will leave it to you to justify the amazingly stupid decision to RTV two editors currently involved in an arbitration request.

"A courtesy vanishing may be implemented when a user in good standing decides not to return"

"for whatever reason wishes to make their contributions harder to find or to remove their association with their edits"

"When there is no administrative need to retain the information, a permanently departing user"

"It is not a way to avoid scrutiny or sanctions."

"Vanishing is not a way to avoid criticism, sanctions, or other negative attention"

So you have extended vanishing to two people who RTV explicitly calls out as not being eligible for the courtesy. You have deliberately made it harder to identify their contributions in the middle of an arbitration request, which is nothing short of disruptive and a disgustingly offensive slap in the face to editors who have been on the recieving end of their past actions which led to this point. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:16, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Am I the only one getting some weird Déjà vu here? It's kind of freaky. Either way...

Cassianto had a significant editing restriction placed against him. While SchroCat was also restricted, I can see a charitable interpretation may say he was in good standing as it was only a pretty weak account restriction which only requires him to disclose future accounts.
Cassianto, though?
In this economy?

Users here were actively looking at his behavoir. Whether that was justified or not is another story, but at the very least HAL333 made a somewhat substantial accusations against him here. Looking at the AE request, it would seem other accusations were made against a lot of people (including SchroCat).
At this point, I think it's pretty dang clear that Administrative response to this contentious area was utterly poor. You have:

Richie333

1. Richie333 warning SchroCat about incivility but admitting he wouldn't take any action because it'd help ensure a no consensus RFC close and if he blocked anyone else he'd also have to block SchroCat for the obvious incivility.
2. Richie333 filing a report against I-82-I who was in a dispute with SchroCat and Cassianto.
3. Richie333 making this comment clearly stating he didn't want to deal with the drama of blocking Cassianto again and that he is involved.
4. Richie333 courtesy vanishing Cassianto and SchroCat despite being involved (thus inadvertently allowing them to avoid scrutiny).

JzG

1. Guy commenting that he felt: [t]he trajectory of the dispute is towards sanctionable behaviour but it's not there yet
2. Guy replying to Masem with a soft anti-infobox editorial position.
3. Guy closing the AE report with a one-sided sanction over the concerns of the other commenting admins.

Unsurprisingly, I don't think these two are the only ones at fault. While Guy and Richie are well known exceptional admins on this project, I'm not a fan of this kind of thing. Clearly if even our best admins are capable of messing up this poorly, then Arbcom needs to rethink its approach to Civility in the infobox disputes and arbitration enforcement. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:50, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I disagree with Richie's conclusion they are de facto banned. I find that would be incredibly unfair to both Cassianto and SchroCat and against the spirit of our banning policy. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:53, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ritchie333: I think what you describe is a problem systematic on Wiki and that it wasn't right for a user to essentially complain and bully his way towards forcing you into unfortunate positions. I hope that makes more sense? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:15, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Guy's proposed addition to WP:AE seems like a good way forward. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 00:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that an editor who has chosen to vanish can be considered to be de-facto banned, even if they return. A request to vanish is a voluntary request to superficially disassociate the requestor's edits from their user name. The remedy for returning is to reassociate their edits. Sanctions may or may not be warranted for other reasons, such as evasion of scrutiny or previously imposed restrictions, but this has to be determined by community consensus or through its delegated authority (such as via enacted policy). isaacl (talk) 14:52, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich: what you're describing is a clean start. Vanishing is about disassociating oneself from all previous edits, and isn't necessary to perform a clean start. isaacl (talk) 02:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The last 2 infobox cases really only scratched the surface of the issues. They did nothing permanent (restrictions lifted) about those who believe infoboxes are necessary to respiration, leaving those who believe life without them is possible to fend for themselves. The pressure produced pushback but it seems as though those who need to push back are viewed as the villians most of the time; those who instigate the issues don't seem to receive their rightful designation.

I began cutting back work here in 2016 because of the disruptive nature of the disputes. At the time of the last case, I no longer did text work and dumped hundreds of bookmarks for expanding & beginning articles. My only mainspace work since 2018 has been as favors to editor friends since I have no interest in working in an environment where only one side holds sway.

Two of those friends have now vanished. One was unjustly accused of editing thereafter (an apology would be nice). The other has been revived for some obscure reason; no longer here ought to be enough.

The infobox problem can be solved in one of two ways-the editors can leave-in ways other than being blocked or banned-saying "to hell with this place"-or enough decision-making people can obtain sufficient backbone to come up with a ruling which fully recognizes more than the pro-box side. We hope (talk) 16:38, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To take one example, one of my complaints about SchroCat was the (ab)use of OneClickArchiver to shut down a thread. Cassianto's last edit was using OneClickArchiver in this manner. While vanishing might be out of process because both editors are parties to this ARCA, I think I agree with Ritchie and WP:OWB: vanishing resolves the issue. As new accounts, if they use OneClickArchiver in this manner, they will be sanctioned quickly; no one will defend them or ignore it. So if they come back as new users and are disruptive, that'll be easily dispatched; if they come back as new users and are not disruptive, then it's win-win. Either way, problem solved, with little or no further editor time needed from arbs, admin, or anyone else. Lev!vich 17:35, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We've lost 2 fantastic editors who have done nothing but put hard work into our articles, Wikipedia will now be worse off without them. –Davey2010^Talk 18:34, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As usual staying out of the merits of any infobox discussion, but I will say this. SchroCat and Cassianto have earned the right to leave in the way that they desire, if that is how it is going to be. People casting around for reasons to deny them this, when one doesn't pan out going to another, doesn't have the best appearance.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:56, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Recuse Moneytrees🏝️^{Talk🌴Help out at CCI!} 22:34, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Recuse --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:54, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• *sigh* I'll do my best to refresh myself with the situation and respond presently, but I will just note that one thing does stand out to me and that is Guerillero's "Ok, Boomer" comment. That was not Ok, especially for an admin who is dealing with a case as uninvolved, in an area that has a specific Arbcom case titled "Civility in [the area]". Worm^TT(talk) 09:19, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I am sorry that I simply haven't had the time for Wikipedia recently and so have let a few things slide. I just want to note publicly the unpopular opinion that I agree with RTV being offered to these editors. I can extol for a while about why RTV is such an important part of any online community, it is a fundamental right to be able to leave something that is not good for you. However, invoking "RTV" and then instantly returning as an IP address is not vanishing and only goes to erode people's confidence in such an important right. I would fully support undoing the vanishing in such cases.
  As for the underlying dispute, it does appear to be a bit of a storm in a teacup, with some explicitly problematic features. I'm not sure that a full case per bradv is needed, and I'm sick to the back teeth of infoboxes - but I'm certainly willing to consider it. Worm^TT(talk) 14:26, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I understand why this request has been filed, and I suppose that in principle it is possible to appeal from an AE closure that didn't sanction one or more editors. That being said, I can't recall any time when we've granted that type of appeal, and I'm not sure this is a sensible place to start. I followed the discussion on the collapsed Sinatra infobox, and one thing that seems to have collapsed there, hopefully temporarily, is the level of civility. However, the logical remedy if this appeal were to be granted would be to direct that the AE thread be reopened. With the temperature on Talk:Frank Sinatra having cooled, and several of the disputants having stepped away, I think that could be counterproductive. If problematic infobox-discussion-related behavior resumes, on that page or elsewhere, a new AE request can be filed and the past behavior can be considered in the context of any ongoing issues. I hope this will not be necessary—and I hope that this hope is not ... hopeless. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:31, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Barkeep49 and Vanamonde93: I note JzG's comment above, which I read to mean that he wouldn't object to someone imposing sanctions against one or more of the other editors who were being discussed before the AE thread was closed. But, if you felt authorized to do so, what sanctions would you seek to impose at this point and against whom? In considering this with respect to any specific editor, you might wish to consider, among other things, whether the editor promised to step away from the dispute several days ago, and whether the editor has kept that promise. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:41, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Barkeep49 and Vanamonde93: To be clear about one thing, the fact that an editor isn't sanctioned in one AE discussion doesn't mean that that behavior can't be taken into account as part of a pattern if there is a later discussion. Maybe that would be true if the discussion concluded "these editors are absolutely innocent," but that was hardly the conclusion anyone reached here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:09, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• AE is intended as a place to request intervention from an uninvolved administrator. While consensus discussions certainly happen on that page, it is not a forum designed to settle disputes between administrators, and so it is appropriate that this matter has been brought here. With regards to the underlying dispute, I am considering whether to propose a new case to investigate the conduct which led to the AE request, the conduct at the AE thread, as well as this related ANI thread, or whether we can solve this with a couple of motions. Given the level of disagreement that exists between enforcing administrators on how best to handle this, I am leaning toward the former. – bradv🍁 15:26, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ritchie333: I'll second Joe's request that these two accounts be unvanished, as they have both been caught editing logged out after their disappearance. I'm also disappointed that their requests to vanish were granted unilaterally, given that they both have active ArbCom sanctions and were being discussed here. As for my ideas above about opening another case or set of motions, we can probably put them on hold at this time. – bradv🍁 15:14, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Ritchie333: I appear to have been mistaken about Cassianto. Technical evidence has revealed that Cassianto has not been caught editing logged out, and that the edits in question actually belong to a different logged-out editor. Please just reverse the vanish of SchroCat, not Cassianto. – bradv🍁 01:23, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree with Newyorkbrad that it would be perhaps odd to grant an appeal on whether to overturn a lack of sanctions. I'm uncertain on whether we need a case. My first reading of the request and surrounding pages was that there was a lot of disagreement between enforcing admins and overall an atmosphere that could charitably be described as trainwreck. That said, should we open a case, it would be third (or fourth if counting review) on infoboxes since 2013, and I'm not sure if that would do much good. I have a few questions:
  • Both infoboxes cases (1,2) each recommended a community wide discussion on infoboxes. Did this happen? (I'm unable to find anything, but perhaps it's because I'm trying to search for something on the scale of WP:AHRFC.)
  • Are the current remedies effective and/or readily enforceable at AE? From the 2013 case, the restrictions, which were only individual editors, have been rescinded. From 2018, we generally have infobox probation and a DS regime.
• If a case were to be opened, I'm not sure what alternatives we would have if "bespoke"-type sanctions are ineffective or difficult to enforce. While I can only speak for myself, the best alternative I can thinking of is a modified infobox probation but more as a topic ban from any infobox-related (no discussions, no adding/removing, only exception is to add an infobox when first creating an article), imposed on named parties to such a third case. Maxim_(talk) 19:47, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would suggest that if this continues to be disruptive, and the community declines a discussion, that we reopen the case, and see if one of the other suggested remedies can get a majority. The panel of arbs is different, and I can imagine a few possible alternatives. DGG ( talk ) 00:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• In the context of an enforcement request that covers the behaviour of multiple parties, a "no action taken" result for one or more parties, where deliberate, should be explicitly mentioned in the closure rather than remaining silent on others mentioned. This is to make it clearer that the closer adequately reviewed the behaviour those parties and specifically chose not to take an action, while also signalling the closer felt sufficiently uninvolved to decide not to take a action against any given party. Alternatively, they may have not taken an action because they felt involved with respect to any given party (that should be particularly noted as well). The proposed handling changes to make it clearer when an enforcement request extends to look into the behaviour of other parties, or to allow an administrator to implement a partial action (severed from the discussion of other parties) look appropriate as well. –xeno^talk 18:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Ritchie333 I don't think those vanishing were a good idea. Apart from this ARCA, both SchroCat and Cassianto have active editing restrictions and a long history of blocks for disruption. I don't see how either can be considered "users in good standing". SchroCat's should definitely be reversed per WP:RTV, since they haven't actually left the project. But I would also suggest Cassianto's is too. These are accounts and talk pages that the community needs unobfuscated access to, even if they have ostensibly stopped editing, to monitor further disruption. It will be unnecessarily difficult to enforce your de facto ban otherwise. – Joe (talk) 13:23, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Ritchie333: If you don't mind reversing both, yes I think we should, since Cassianto has also now returned to editing as an IP and invalidated the good faith assumption behind WP:RTV. I can also do it myself, but I've never done a vanishing before so might mess up some of the technicalities. As you prefer. – Joe (talk) 08:54, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  It seems the apparent Cassianto IP-sock was someone else. I still think his RTV should be reversed, though, on the basis that he really wasn't eligible for it to begin with @Ritchie333:. – Joe (talk) 06:25, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Ritchie333: Thanks. I agree that what we have here is a lack of consensus about Cassianto's vanishing. But I also don't think it's particularly an ArbCom matter, so maybe the best thing to do is to ask for outside opinions at WP:AN? – Joe (talk) 15:44, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not really opposed to the RTVs of either user; if this is what helps them disengage, particularly from conflict areas, then the vanishing does more good than harm. Ritchie333, if you do intend to reverse a vanishing, you need to override AntiSpoof, which you should be able to do as a global renamer. If you still intend to reverse either vanishing, let me know which one(s) and I can attempt it myself. Maxim_(talk) 12:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]