Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification/Header

Initiated by aprock (talk) at 19:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• aprock (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Snowded (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Vecrumba (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• WeijiBaikeBianji (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Slrubenstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Slrubenstein
• WeijiBaikeBianji
• Vercumba
• Snowded
• Captain Occam

There is currently a meta discussion on Talk:Race_(classification_of_humans) amongst the affected users listed above about whether or not User:Captain Occam's topic ban includes that page or not [1]. The findings of fact indicate: Of the 306 edits made to date to his ten most-edited articles, only 17 (6%) do not relate to race and intelligence[2]. When the tool server stats are consulted, the implication is that "race" and "intelligence" articles are being considered here [3] (the non R/I articles seem to be William Beebe and Marquand Park).

Given the fact that there seems to be some confusion about what the scope of articles covered by the remedy: "8) Captain Occam (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from race and intelligence related articles, broadly construed." [4], I would like to request a clarification of what articles are covered. (Note, I'm not sure of the best way to handle this request, so if this is premature I apologize and request guidance.) aprock (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to specifically ask whether New_Black_Panther_Party is covered by the topic ban. aprock (talk) 19:22, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thank aprock for his notification of this clarification request. Yes, I too am interested in the scope of the topic ban under the Race and intelligence Arbitration Committee case, because I have already asked, with a helpful response from arbitrator Carcharoth, how the community might help make editors aware that some articles are within the scope of the discretionary sanctions to be adopted in the soon final decision of that case. I have already written a template for article talk pages and a template to remind editors, inviting comments about and edits to those templates from more experienced editors, so that all members of the community will have notice of the ArbCom decision and its topic scope. I have given the individual findings of fact on editor conduct in the ArbCom case a close reading to determine which articles are subject to the topic ban, but at least one editor who is about to be banned seems to read the topic restriction more narrowly. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 19:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given that there is contention regarding the role and nature of race (societal, biological, genomic) and that there is still debate as to what degree "race" as a societal concept is mirrored in real genetics, any race related topic dealing with concepts of, evolution, biology, heritability, etc. could be considered as being in scope. I would request that for the editors subject to the topic ban, that clear (and "single voice of ArbCom") guidance be given regarding specific articles in and out of scope of the topic ban at the case mentioned. Editors should not find themselves in the position of interpreting a topic ban, interpreting ArbCom discussions as to scope of ban, or be potentially subjected to, for example (unfortunately), harassing policing by their editorial opposition where there is a difference of opinion on scope of ban. A prompt and clear response will go a long way toward calming the subject matter area. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 21:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To some of the commentary subsequently, I would respectfully request that we stick to the request for clarification, not relitigate R&I in the light of other articles. Either "Race (classification of humans)", for example, is in scope (that is, with respect to all sanctioned editors, so individual editors conduct at any impacted article is immaterial), or it is not. Plain and simple. A single:

This article falls under the "Race and intelligence" topic ban of (DATE), widely construed. Participating editors are reminded not to contact topic banned editors regarding this article as such contact can be taken as baiting editors to violate their topic ban. Thank you for everyone's cooperation.

at the top of article talk will do. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First, at Race and Intelligence, Captain Ocaam, David kane and Mikemikev generally pushed two views: that average diferences in IQ according to race have or likely have a genetic basis, and that races are biologically real (or natural divisions among humans). The first claim was relevant to some other articles, like Heritability of IQ whereas the second claim was relevant to different articles, especially Race. Captain Occam's first edit at Race this year was specifically concerning "race and IQ" [5] so it is pretty clear to me that his interest in this article is tied to his interested in the Race and IQ article.

Second, it is my opinion that Mikemikev, David Kane and Captain Occam only began editing the Race article because of the way the conflict at R&I heated up. In other words, they went to Race not only to push the same POV as they were pushing at R&I, but also to change a WP article so that it would support the edits they were making at R&I.

For these reasons I think Race is relevant to the recent ArbCom ruling. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

David.Kane who is one of the editors subject to a topic ban on race and intelliegence, was recently blocked for edit warring on Race (classification of humans). Mikemikev who according to the arbitration proceedings is due to be site banned for a year, was recently blocked for edit warring on Race (classification of humans). Mikemikev was later indefinitely blocked for incivility and harassment due in part to comments made in edit summaries to Race (classification of humans) and other controversial statements linked to the main Race article as described in in this ANI report.

There is a suggestion that the evidence submitted to Arbcom only pertained to race and intelligence article. The first diff in this section of my evidence submission is linked to the Race and genetics article. In summary, I have always taken for granted that this current controversy is spread over a number of related articles including Race (classification of humans) and Race and genetics.

Finally I would like to seek clarification on the Meatpuppetry. Would it be necessary to file a completely new request or can this be handled in this case. Wapondaponda (talk) 02:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since Cool Hand Luke is commenting here, I’m assuming that it’s acceptable for this to be discussed here when the case isn’t closed yet, so I’m going to offer my statement about it now.

I need to make it clear that I have no intention to actually continue editing the Race (classification of humans) article, and I’ve stated this several times on the talk page for that article. The reason Aprock, Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi have been asking about this here is because I also stated on this article’s talk page that I consider my decision to stay out of this article a voluntary one, so I did not think it should be necessary for me to promise to never edit this article for the duration of my topic ban. But apparently, my statement that I would be voluntarily staying out of this article was unacceptable enough to them that they needed to bring this up here.

However, I do intend to eventually create an article about the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case. And this has nothing to do with my interest in race—I consider this a politics topic, and it’s the only recent political controversy in the United States that does not yet have its own article here. In this thread on the proposed decision talk page, I asked the arbitrators whether my topic ban extended to this article, and all three of the arbitrators who expressed an opinion there (Newyorkbrad, Rlevse, and Carcharoth) stated that in their opinion it did not. Rlevese and Carcharoth both also explained why in their opinion it did not:

[6]: Without reading the findings, especially the ones one locus, and case history, one could read it as being about "race and intelligence" or "race" and "intelligence". But if you read the findings on locus and case history, they clearly center on "race and intelligence". The proposed article by Captain Occam seems, from what I can tell to lack the "intelligence" aspect as it's about voting.

[7]: The locus findings make clear this case is narrowly about race and intelligence (the category is linked there). One of the reasons the locus is so narrow is because the editors in question had a very narrow focus and the further questions arise because these editors are expanding this focus. I did propose a remedy that was purely race-related, see remedy 4, but that failed to pass.

This seems reasonable to me. Although my involvement in other race-related articles was brought up in order to show the focus of my editing over the past year, the locus of dispute makes it clear that this arbitration case was specifically about articles in this category, and I don’t think there’s any evidence that I’ve caused disruption outside of this category. For example, I’ve only made a single edit to the Race (classification of humans) article in the past three months, and have only edited it a total of 11 times in all the time I’ve been active on Wikipedia. Contrary to Slrubenstein’s statement, the arbcom ruling about me also does not state that I’ve engaged in POV-pushing on these articles—I’m being sanctioned for edit warring and false claims of consensus, and the finding of fact about me does not mention POV-pushing at all. For these reasons, as well as the reasons given by Rlevse and Carcharoth that I quoted, I don’t think my topic ban should be extended beyond the locus of dispute for this case.

As I said, my ability to edit the Race (classification of humans) article is not important to me, but I would definitely consider it a loss if I were disallowed from editing any article that mentions race or IQ, the vast majority of which are far beyond the topic area where I’ve caused any disruption. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I’d also like to add that in order to avoid similar requests for clarification being necessary in the future, it would be helpful if ArbCom could come up with a clearly-defined boundary for my (and David.Kane’s and Mathsci’s) topic ban. For example, if the topic bans cover every article related to the race and intelligence controversy, then that’s very easy to understand—it means that if an article is listed in this category then we can’t edit it, but if it isn’t then we can. However, I predict that a less clearly-defined boundary will result in a lot of further confusion over this. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In light of the comments below (particularly Cool Hand Luke’s comment), the way that I’m currently interpreting the scope of my topic ban is that it covers all controversies that are specifically about race—such as what causes the difference in average IQ between races, to what extent racial groups line up with genetic clusters based on geographic ancestry, etc. But the conclusion I’m drawing is that my topic ban does not extend to articles about controversies where race is only one of many elements they involve, and not the main element. So on the topic of the voter intimidation case, there’s a race element because the New Black Panther Party is considered a black supremacist group, but the central controversy is over whether Obama’s department of justice is allowing politics to interfere with the objective application of justice, and that’s why the topic ban doesn’t cover it.

It would be helpful if arbitrators could clarify whether this interpretation is correct. I also approve of Vecrumba’s suggestion above, that labels be placed be placed on all of the articles covered by topic bans in order to forestall any future confusion over this. However, if this solution is to be used, I think the labels need to be placed by either clerks or arbitrators themselves. Otherwise, they’re going to represent only one editor’s interpretation of the scope of topic bans, which is not necessarily correct. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• No, editing Race (classification of humans) is prohibited by the topic ban. The remedy says that the topic ban applies to "race and intelligence related articles, broadly construed." Construing it broadly, I think all articles about race controversies are included, including the Race article, and we did include this article when counting R/I edits, as aprock says. I may be open to allowing this editing after a few months of non-controversial editing (and I would personally entertain a request for amendment at a future date to allow such editing). However, I see no reason to allow such editing immediately after the case closed; users should take this opportunity to branch out. (Actually, the case isn't even closed yet, although it should be according to the time-stamps.) I have no strong views on whether New Black Panther Party is included; I think it is technically outside of the topic ban, but I would caution the user. Controversial editing in this area may lead to AE or other discretionary sanctions. Cool Hand Luke 04:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC) revised 16:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that New Black Panther Party is not primarily about race in the way that articles in the R&I category or Race (classification of humans) are centrally about race and claimed differences between races. I agree that it's outside of the topic ban for that reason. However, I reiterate that it's a very bad idea to edit in such a controversial area on the heels of an ArbCom case. See NYB's comment. Cool Hand Luke 22:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• There are two different things here and it is best to keep them separate.
  First, the discretionary sanctions apply to editors working on articles within the Race and intelligence controversy category and any closely related articles (which, for example, were for whatever reason not tagged as part of the controversy category). However, individual sanctions under this remedy can be very wide-ranging and can prevent specified editors working on any article, or commenting on any page.
  Second, the topic ban applying to named editors is much broader (which is why it doesn't use the same language as the discretionary sanctions) and applies to articles about race and about intelligence. The topic ban's objective is to prevent exportation of the dispute to other areas and to prevent pushing of permutations of the same POV agenda.
  I have no current opinion on the Black Panther article.  Roger Davies ^talk 06:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC) Expanded  Roger Davies ^talk 08:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• The two Arbiters above covered it fairly completely but I'd also like to note that topic banned editors shouldn't be discussing the topic with other editors, especially not to try to influence their editing. I also want to remind Captain Occam that if people known to be associated with him suddenly start editing these articles, it will not be viewed favorably. Shell ^babelfish 07:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I am in general agreement with the other arbitrators on their interpretation of the scope of the topic-ban. I also reiterate my view that while the New Black Panther Party case is not within the scope of the topic-ban, it is a really poor idea for Captain Occam to start his editing career outside the race-and-intelligence area with this article. Please find another area to edit in; at a minimum, if your editing in areas relating directly or indirectly to race issues or matters pertaining to members of a particular race or ethnicity is tendentious or problematic, I anticipate that we will be asked to expand the scope of the ban, and that we would have to consider that request very seriously. I hope that this will not be necessary. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Concur with prior arbiters. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Given what has elapsed here, I think the topic ban should be extended to include race-related articles. However, as I pointed out, a remedy proposing that in the proposed decision did not pass. I regret that Captain Occam chose (on the proposed decision talk page) to interpret this as implicit support for him editing so close to the boundaries here. There are plenty of articles he could chose to edit that are unrelated to either race or intelligence or both. There is absolutely no need to test the boundaries here in any way whatsoever. Carcharoth (talk) 00:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed with those above. SirFozzie (talk) 23:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]