Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts

Please, someone can help me to find the name of this painting from Case Closed: Sunset beach woman. Thank you. --95.252.62.76 (talk) 09:40, 3 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Someone can help me? --95.232.234.171 (talk) 07:35, 24 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello! Wiki Education is developing a guide to help students write about all topics related to art history. The handout is meant to supplement other resources that they consult, such as an interactive training and basic editing brochures. We’d love to get some community feedback on the draft here: User:Cassidy_(Wiki_Ed)/Art_history. We're looking to gather feedback by August 16th. Feel free to respond here or on the draft's talk page. Thanks so much! Cassidy (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

In John Pairman, Bridge over the River Almond links to the DAB page River Almond. Both rivers look plausible. This problem was first spotted in October 2015. Can anyone help solve this puzzle? Narky Blert (talk) 20:18, 9 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

It might be the Almond Aqueduct over the River Almond, Lothian, compare the painting and the aquaduct. The proportions and the shape of the piers aren't exact, but the piers in the painting are proud of the bridge body and the top of the bridge is perfectly horizontal. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:29, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

How do the members of this Wikiproject feel about {{infobox artwork/wikidata}} and its friends? They have been proliferating over the last year or two - nearly 300 uses for the artwork one,[1] whereas the non-wikidata version is used about 7,000 times.[2]

Do we like importing potentially unverified and possibly incorrect information without any additional review? Do we like the "data" it choses to present, and how it presents it? Are we willing to let it slowly creep in, article by artice, until it becomes the default? 213.205.240.214 (talk) 23:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes. It makes sense to store some data where it can be re-used by other projects. Vexations (talk) 23:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

• Very dubious, if only because the accuracy of WD is so very low. Johnbod (talk) 01:22, 12 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
• Opposed to them, both the specific implementation—which adds lines like "Owner=Sally Bequester" which are nonsense; adds inconsistent and poorly worded information about medium; sometimes adds a third dimension to paintings because, hey, depth has been bot-populated on Wikidata; and so on. I'm also opposed to them in principle as detailed here. (I've never understood the "other projects" argument. That's for them--one can only analyze wikidata infoboxes used on English Wikipedia in the context of what they do for the English Wikipedia. Outriggr (talk) 01:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
• Remove them forthwith or before. Not under Wikipedia's jurisdiction or control, the existing Wikipedia images may be removed from the infobox because of differing policies, and lots of other things too obvious to go on about. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:57, 15 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

• On some pages they seem to work well, on others they would make the infobox worse. I've been trying the code on various pages and see misspellings (Memory, the Heart), the wrong image (Guernica), etc. Kinks in the system, and, again, uneditable by strictly-Wikipedia editors. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:45, 16 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
• Randy Kryn Would it be correct to infer form the above that you also advocating that no images should be hosted on Commons either, as "not strictly en-wiki"? Vexations (talk) 21:28, 16 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Of course not, so please correct me if I'm wrong about Wikidata. Does it go under the fair use restrictions of Commons images, which I'm assuming, or of images uploaded on Wikipedia, which can often be used in cases where Commons images cannot. I'm not an expert on the policy of each. Thanks. And in case of commons, editors have to go get the image, where in Wikidata infoboxes one template gives all of the information for a subject which, as I point out above, is often incorrect. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
    • Randy Kryn I'm just trying to understand the arguments against the use of Wikidata. One objection you raised was "Not under Wikipedia's jurisdiction or control", and the same is true for Commons, so I'm a bit confused about why you would think your objection applies to one but not the other. --Vexations (talk) 21:57, 16 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
      • Commons hosts images which are easily obtainable without having to sign in as a member there, just copy and paste, but the Wikidata template brings over information and data which is uneditable on Wikipedia, and is automatically transferred with a one-use-fits-all template. That's my personal concern, maybe colored by the recent purge of valued images from many of Wikipedia's main articles on painting history and painting movements. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
      • Yes, Wikipedia editors pull material from Commons, but Wikidata templates push WD material onto Wikipedia. And the sort of people who add WP templates never check what is being brought over. It's true that if a Commons file changes, say be being cropped & not uploaded as a new version, what is seen on WP changes, but this is pretty rare. Commons is full of inaccuracies, but one hopes that in most cases WP editors avoid the images that are wrongly described etc. Johnbod (talk) 01:31, 17 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
        • Randy Kryn The template actually allows a fair amount of customization. for example, on My Shanty, Lake George, I have enabled the onlysourced flag, which makes sure that only sourced data is imported. The advantage here is that it removes the clutter from the infobox that adding citations in an Infobox otherwise would add. It is also possible to suppress any fields so that is not shown. Wikidata's Materials used is a problem, it inserts the "Oil paint, Canvas", but can be easily overwritten with medium = Oil on Canvas for example. As for editing Wikidata, they let IP users edit, you don't have to log in.
          • I was going to add italics in User:Jane023/Paintings by Suzanne Valadon but apparently anything edited here is erased on the next Wikidata update. I really don't want to start editing Wikidata, no offense. The entire linked page 'Paintings by Suzanne Valadon' should also be in visible space on Wikipedia, is that allowed (full pages of only Wikidata coding)? Thanks. And please everyone, note that another 'attack' is underway against Wikipedia images on major articles. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
            • is that allowed (full pages of only Wikidata coding)? As far as I know, there is consensus against such pages. I don't remember where that discussion took place, but I recall strong consensus against. For example, I couldn't publish User:Vexations/lists/List_of_works_by_Jacques-Louis_David as it is. What I could do is take the wikicode generated on such pages, and paste that in an article, ensuring that no updates will be made to such a page automatically. To update the page, I would then have to perform another copy/paste again. That may satisfy editors who prefer that edits to Wikipedia can only be made on Wikipedia itself. Vexations (talk) 18:04, 17 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
              • Thanks, and I did copy the page and created it as List of paintings by Suzanne Valadon, with a brief introduction and link and italics fixes. Maybe Wikipedia should contain all such lists that Wikidata has created, such as your David list. Probably a new section should be added to this talk page to go talk over such a question, but yes, I can see the value in copy/paste of such lists. Thanks again. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:00, 17 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

I know not many editors (as opposed to readers) are interested in porcelain, but this has gone nearly 3 weeks without a comment. Anything welcome. Johnbod (talk) 14:08, 2 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I was going through the templates at Category:American artist navigational boxes and see several which focus on comic book artists. Do comic book artists belong in this category? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:42, 3 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think so, rightly or wrongly. The comics trees end up parented by the main visual art one. Johnbod (talk) 19:22, 3 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. For clarity I'd suggest that the comic tree should be trimmed, at least of those topics not pertaining to original artwork (comics and comic books themselves are reproductions of the art and not the original). The original woodcut of Join, or Die, for example, would be a major museum piece if it still existed. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:45, 7 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

A bit more data that comics isn't functionally included in the Wikiproject would be the visual arts template {{Branches of the visual arts}}, and the drawing article which doesn't list (at least on a quick read) comic artists. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:58, 14 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello! At Talk:Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight) § RfC, there is an RfC on the question "Should there be an article on Emma Sulkowicz?". You are being notified because the page is tagged as being of interest to this WikiProject. :) -sche (talk) 21:36, 6 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

There is what may be an interesting discussion at The Indian Church about the use of the word 'renamed' in the first sentence. Can a well-known painting be renamed by a museum after an artist has died? Has this happened often? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:35, 7 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Given Randy Kryn's bang up job on Template:Wassily Kandinsky, which I just noticed today and which inspired me to produce Template:Aubrey Beardsley, WP:WPVA has only one WP:VA level 4 or higher biography without a biographical template according to my 2017 status update. Gerhard Richter needs some attention.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:41, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Nice work on Beardsley. Creating templates for some of these well-known artists is complicated by not having enough material to link. Richter is a good example, and I haven't looked closely but articles on his work seem few. I did a Berthe Morisot template yesterday and made the required five article links for template-creation (unofficial but used at the deletion pages). Even Alfred Sisley is underrepresented by few articles on artworks. But maybe kind-of-empty templates will be filled in time ("build it and they will come"), when new art historians and art appreciation students "discover" Wikipedia. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:20, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

The only articles on Richter's works that I am aware of are 18. Oktober 1977, 48 Portraits, Richter window [de; fr; ru], Wand (Wall), Abstraktes Bild (809-1), Domplatz, Mailand [de]. Vexations (talk) 21:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Vexations for some borderline template subjects, we get to a threshold number of links with articles other than works such as family members, Institutions named after him, institutions he created, his legacy in the media and such. Does the list get any longer with any of these subjects.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:26, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Randy Kryn if you are looking for subjects, I would go through the WP:VA list. They have begun expanding to a level 5. There should be lots of fairly important artists without templates. It would be interesting if someone went through Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers and determined a list of people still in need of templates like I did 21 months ago before level 5 existed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:32, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps this list of works by Gerhard Richter is helpful? Vexations (talk) 22:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Vexations, From that list, it seems that someone should be able to cobble together a group of four subjects worth translating into english. You seem to be quite a Richter fan. I invite you to create enough links to support him having his own template. He stands out in a bad way as the only level 4 WP:VA artist without a biographical template.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:18, 13 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I will have another look at the German articles. I could probably do the translations into English, and I am well-acquainted with his work. Vexations (talk) 00:09, 14 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

TonyTheTiger I translated de:48 Portraits to 48_Portraits and de:Domplatz, Mailand to Cathedral Square, Milan. Suggestions for improvement (more than) welcome. Thanks, Vexations (talk) 00:56, 19 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Translations are now complete, and there is a artist navigational box for {{Gerhard Richter}} Vexations (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm impressed with the Illuminated manuscript article and surprised by its lowish "C" ranking. I've not edited it, don't expect to. But I want to suggest that its status be upgraded. GeeBee60 (talk) 15:43, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

As apparently one of the top 1 or 2 editors of it, I think C is a safe grading really. It's short on refs & probably not checked over for a good while. But thanks! Johnbod (talk) 22:44, 11 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Per https://www.theartnewspaper.com/news/tate-uses-wikipedia-entries-on-artists-for-its-website, the Tate is “working on a partnership with Wikipedia to ensure the biographies for artists in our collection are as accurate as possible”. Does anyone here know anything about that initiative? Vexations (talk) 13:17, 12 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

The Tate replaced most of their on-line biographies with WP articles in, as I recall, December 2016. Overnight it created a mass of circular references in WP articles which had to be removed and also meant the loss of a large number of good sources. I have no idea who they spoke to at WP. At the time the Tate were inviting feedback on the change but when I contacted them the only response I got was a 'thank-you for your comments'. There was a, very, small discussion about the change on this talk page at the time.14GTR (talk) 13:57, 12 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I've not heard of anything like that implies. There were 2 editathons at Tate Britain in 2016 organized with Wikimedia UK, one on "Queer British Art at Tate Britain" (coinciding with an exhibition) & the other one of the Art & Feminism series. Doing a search on the WMUK site, there's talk of meetings in 2009 but otherwise not much at all. Mind you, they don't put stuff online the way they used to. I thought Tate Modern weren't very keen to engage with wp when I was involved with that sort of thing a few years ago, & spoke to senior people at conferences. User:RexxS? Johnbod (talk) 14:18, 12 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

The very small discussion was here, I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts&diff=prev&oldid=753188802# Lucian Freud, a vital article, contains a reference to https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artists/lucian-freud-1120, which is Wikipedia's text. I have not yet dealt with that one. Other articles affected were John Skeaping, Martin Froy, Denis Masi, Alexander Runciman, Elizabeth Stuart-Wortley, Baroness Wharncliffe, Bhupen Khakhar, Errol Sawyer, John Bellany, Anthony Gross- i have removed the circular references where circular refs were used to cite biographical facts, where the tate website was used to cite that a work is in their collection, I have left them. Bendor Grosvenor's article discussing the change is here. Vexations (talk) 21:42, 12 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I've transcluded the complete "very small discussion" below, from the archives. Interesting to see how for a few artists such as Francis Bacon they have tabs for both their in-house bio and the Wikipedia bio. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Tate's mistake is believing that "constantly updated" equals "constantly improved". GeeBee60 (talk) 17:56, 13 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Are there any current contacts with the Tate to encourage their curators to contribute to Wikipedia some of the time they otherwise would have put into their own biography pages? It would be good to have a GLAM partnership or Wikimedian in residence. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 05:17, 15 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

The Museum of Modern Art simply adds links to wikipedia articles. When clicked on, a portion of the lead is shown, with the option to read further, then links to wikipedia. See e.g., Picasso, MoMA. This avoids circular links, but they have removed valuable references. Coldcreation (talk) 07:53, 15 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Something may be said about this at the "Tate Late" event at Tate Britain this evening.[3]:

213.205.240.209 (talk) 17:47, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Oh, Jesus! Daria's such an expert on how WP works. Johnbod (talk) 18:26, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Is this part of the strategic development of Wikimedia UK activity plan then? User:Daria Cybulska (WMUK), can you please clarify? --Vexations (talk) 21:00, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

She last made an edit in 2015, so I'd email her at WMUK if you want an answer. Johnbod (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

No, nothing said about this. Just how wonderful it is when institutions provide licence-free images to us, so we can make them available for anyone to reuse. She mentioned a Delft image from the Rijksmuseum, reused in an image that looks like a contact lens advert, discussed further here: [4][5][6][7] That is nothing to do with Wikipedia/Wikimedia as far as I can see.

Places like the Met are releasing a lot of of free images; pity the UK collections are not doing so as much. The moral quid pro quo for the Tate - and some other institutions - relying on our biographical or other textual content must be letting us have good free images. But nothing said about that either.

And the best example of Wikimedia's added value is ... Commons:Category:Cats acting as humans in art. Well done us. 213.205.240.209 (talk) 21:31, 28 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Link to the Signpost mention of the Tate issue: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2018-10-01/In the media 213.205.251.57 (talk) 13:30, 1 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think more eyes are needed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maddox Gallery. I think the discussion could benefit from wider input. Bus stop (talk) 14:32, 14 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps not all that many members of this project are notified of visual art related deletion discussions. Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual arts/Article alerts has fewer than 30 page watchers. Vexations (talk) 21:08, 14 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hello, recently I moved the Portal:Pornography to Portal:Erotica and Pornography that seemed to be the original idea of the portal and encompasses broader concepts than simple commercial pornography, like Erotic art. I would like to invite them to help maintain and develop the portal, because I believe it is within the scope of this project.Guilherme Burn (talk) 19:34, 18 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I don't think pornography is in the scope of this project, to be honest. Vegetables are in the scope of vegetarianism, but meat AND vegetables are not, and would be better covered by food. Sure, erotic art is art, but pornography (with some notable exceptions) generally isn't. Vexations (talk) 21:26, 18 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Might a few editors experienced with this project please review the talk page Talk:Macrophilia including the visual art related sources linked there, then inform me by ping whether they believe the article fits "WikiProject Visual arts"'s scope?

Please give a detailed response, if not too burdensome, responding to all opined correlations with the arts.

Eaterjolly (talk) 04:18, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Comments invited at Talk:Old_Master#Recent_edits. Thanks, Johnbod (talk) 02:41, 26 September 2018 (UTC)Reply