User talk:Wikiality123/Archive7

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On 17 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Tamil cinema and Dravidian politics, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 23:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

		The Original Barnstar
		You have been truly great editor,civil and helpful.Wikipedia runs due to users like you. Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 01:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi! I am currently working with articles on former CMs of Madras/Tamil Nadu. I don't know the expansion of P and T in P. T. Rajan. I just wanna ask if you know, so that I could add his complete name in P. T. Rajan article. :-)-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 03:56, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

No probs :-). I just found out his full name from a biography of his-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 13:41, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

First of all kudos on doing a wonderful job :-). But I guess you've got to expand the article a bit more. Another 1 KB or so. 7,332 * 5 = 36,660 bytes.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 17:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I feel you should replace the infobox. How about using Template:Infobox Officeholder. You could specify the different offices he had held, his term as Chief Minister, the name of hs predecessor and successor, the governor of TN, etc etc etc. You could get it to 37K without much effort.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 17:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok! See you later. Gotto go now. And wish you a happy journey. tc :-) -Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 17:14, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry! I'll keep an eye :-) And Happy New Year and Pongal to you too. -Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 21:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello! Your submission of C. N. Annadurai at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Dravecky (talk) 05:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi buddy, I am planning to nominate M. Bhaktavatsalam for a DYK. I want to improve the verifiability of this article by adding more refs. However, I am not able to find much sources on the web. It would be grt if you could help me add refs. It would also be grt if we could expand his initials. What does "M" stand for?-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 10:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot :-) I expanded the article a bit more. I cannot access the book whose link you gave me. Yeah, O. Panneerselvam, V. R. Nedunchezhiyan, Janaki Ramachandran, O. P. Ramaswamy Reddiyar and P. S. Kumaraswamy Raja are some Chief Minister articles which need to be expanded. I've expanded A. Subbarayalu Reddiar and Raja of Panagal. At present, I am giving final touches to Raja of Panagal before nominating it for a GA. At the same time, I am expanding P. Subbarayan. Still, got a long way to go. C. Rajagopalachari is fairly good but some details of his non-CM activities need to be added. Kamaraj article needs some POV-balancing, I feel. Let'ssee. When time permits, we'll work on them. Cheers! And Wish U a very HAPPY NEW YEAR! :-) Have a blast!!! -Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 17:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

On 29 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article C. N. Annadurai, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Wish you a happy new year.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi! How were your new year celebrations? :-) I just observed that you've edited the article on Ellis R. Dungan. I wish to bring to ur notice one surprising fact I stumbled upon a few months back. M. K. Thyagaraja Bhagavathar fansite claims that MKT was offered a knighthood by the then Governor of Madras, Arthur Oswald James Hope in return for the humanitarian aid he provided to injured British soldiers during the Second World War. However, the site claims, MKT rejected the knighthood. If this was indeed true, then MKT would have been the only Indian film actor to be offered a knighthood by the British government. However, I am looking for more neutral, more reliable sources with regard to this. Bye for now. tc-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 05:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Do have a look at this link-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 06:06, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

This book says that MKT was awarded a "Diwan Bahadur" title. Now this appears more reliable, I guess.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 17:06, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Diwan Bahadur is a title given to eminent people during the Raj. It also includes a citation and a medal. But then, this is evidence enough that he was felicitated, at least. I feel that the author of his fansite might have mistaken this felicitation for a knighthood.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 13:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi! I've been working with P. Subbarayan today and the article is largely over. I feel that the coverage of his later life is not enough and that we need some more, if possible, some reforms he introduced as a minister in the Rajaji and O. P. Ramaswamy Reddiyar governments or as Union Minister. As for his early life, I have a lot of sources and I guess it is largely over. P. Munuswamy Naidu, too, is pretty much over, and so is P. T. Rajan. On completion of P. Subbarayan, we may very well move onto Raja of Bobbili.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 14:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi! I just had a look. The article looks good enough for atleast a B-gradng. But there are a couple of minor issues, which I feel, could be fixed:

• I personally feel that some of the section headings aren't appropriate. "Dravidian" and "DMK" had been confused in many places. I feel the article could start with a brief history of Tamil cinema and then directly move to the politicization thing instead of having short descriptions of "Dravidian politics" and "Tamil cinema".

• More images could be added. There is only one image for the whole article. The easiest solution is to add pictures of MGR, MK and JJ as these are the easiest to get.

Apart from thes eminor issues, the article is fine. The article would unquestionably satisfy all the requirements for a "B" grading if these areas are looked into. Anyway, the grade next to "B" is start-class and the article being far far better for a start-class article is closer to being a "B" than a "Start" class article. So, I am assessing it as a "B". Kudos for the good work! The article is well-written with good, reliable references and adequate inline citations.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 10:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, can you assess P. Subbarayan. The article was last assessed as "Stub" and that was a long time back-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 10:42, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi! One of my DYK noms appeared on the Main page yesterday. This was the nom:

... that Indian historian V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar believed that ancient South Indians may have known of Australia and Polynesia before their discovery by Europeans?

Well, well, while scholarly treatises and books on the history of Australia analyze the chances of Zheng He, Macassars having visited Australia, etc., none of them even consider the possibility of the Cholas having visited Australia or New Zealand. This is something which definitely needs to be investigated. And this statement by a respected Indian historian in a 1947-book was a pleasant discovery for me. This, definitely, needs thorough investigation. There also appear to be linguistic similarities between Tamils and Polynesians. Well, have you realized how similar taboo appears to the Tamil word "tappu" which has the same meaning. Yeah, I agree that we use the word "tappu" only in casual talk and not in classical usage but still the possibility of intercourse between ancient Tamil people and Pacific islanders could not be ruled out. I guess Polynesia and Australia might be of the same distance from South India as Philippines or atleast China. And it is well know that Chola embassies visited Japan and CHina. So, why is it not possible that traders could have visited Australia.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 04:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think humans originated in Africa. Most old skeletons are found close to the east coast of Africa. There is the possibility that the heart of this "homeland" lay further beyond. I think that there is a strong possibility that the homeland of humans could be the legendary Lemuria. It could also have been the same as our Kumari Kandam. Australia would have form the eastern edge of Lemuria just like Africa formed the western corner. Tamil Nadu lies slightly north of this region. Humans who migrated northwards from Lemuria could have first occupied the Tamil country before moving northward and colonizing North India. Maybe, I am propounding theory but it isn't impossible though.

As for the Aryan-Dravidian thing, the Aryans were actually inhabitants of Central Asia who moved southwards and occupied the highlands of West Asia and South Asia. While these Indo-Europeans could've been the interior highland dwellers, the Dravidians could've been those who occupied the coast. Both these groups more or less inhabited lands that lay adjacent to one another. The Indo European groups could not have occupied much of India. My opinion is that the only lands they occupied weree the Indus plains. And when the Vedic civilization ended, the actual Indo-Europeans could've perished while heavily "Aryanized" Dravidian tribes of India could have claimed their legacy and adopted their language and culture. You see, even in recent times, it is fashion for upward mobile social groups of India to adopt practices such as vegetarianism, Sanskrit names, etc. The same could have taken place then, too. In case, you notice, most Indians, even Brahmins, have a lot of differences from the "actual Aryans" of Iran-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 13:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The actual Dravidian cultures in West Asia are Mesapotamia, Elam and the Brahui of Baluchistan. K. R. Malkani in his book "The Sindh Story" recounts that the Sindhi child often counted in "Dravidian" numerals instead of the popularly used "Sindhi Aryan" numerals while playing gilli-danda. So, it is possible that there was a Dravidian cultural influence as late as the early 20th century. And then, Brahmins in India are classified into two groups - the Pancha Gauda and the Pancha Dravida. Strangely, the Marathi and Gujarati Brahmins are also classified under Pancha-Dravida despite the fact that these regions lie outside of the historical Dravidian homeland. I feel that this classification is rather suggestive and that these regions have heavy Dravidian influences. So, by deeper analysis, you could come to the conclusion that the Dravidian strongholds lay on the coast while the Aryan strongholds are actually the highlands of the interior like Assyria, Media, Pashtunistan, Punjab and Kashmir. Migosh, I guess I had diverted a bit too much from the actual topic :-O.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 14:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

As for the Lemuria thing, I am afraid I have little knowledge of biology to comment upon the biological aspects. And then, yeah, I have studied this Aryan thing and from what I know, Sanskrit is very closely related to a language called Avestan which was a liturgical language used in Elburz mountains of Northern Iran. It is very close to Iranic tongues like Avestan and Old Persian, which were earlier mistaken for dialects of Sanskrit. So, Sanskrit is definitely of north-westerly origin, probably alien to India. But a point which historians have completely ignored is that Old Persian did have a non-Aryan element in it. The first book of the Avesta, the Vendidad regards the porcupine to be holy while regarding the tortoise to be obnoxious. Such beliefs appear closer to the Judaic concept of clean and unclean animals than anything in Vedic Hinduism. I do not know when Vendidad was written but then, I feel that there was a fair degree of Semitic influence even in the early stages of Zoroastrianism, mainly Judaic.

As for the Dravidian-Aryan thing, I do not believe in the sudden dispersal of Aryans across India. I, rather, believe that Aryans and Dravidians co-existed for millenia, either in peace or in enmity, all over South and West Asia. How the Aryan ideas penetrated India is inexplicable and appear to be one of the greatest mysteries in human history. Some call it AIT, some, AMT, some have propounded an Out-of-India theory. While the last option is least likely to be proved, we still aren't clear whether it was a migration or invasion. Anyway, I feel "Aryanization" had a bigger influence on Indians than "Aryans" themselves. As for the race theories, none appear convincing. Some say that Aryans could be identified by dolicocephalic skulls, but an investigation made by Edgar Thurston in the early 1900s proved that "Dravidian" Malayalis were more dolicocephalic that most "Aryan" North Indians. Identifications by color, too, have proved to be unsatisfactory. I do not know much about genetics and the mitochondrial DNA thing, anyway-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 18:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

As for genetics, for the past few months, the papers of geneticists Toomas Kivisild and Stephen Oppenheimer appear eyecatching to me. However, I don't understand this mitochondrial DNA and haplogroups thing-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 18:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

As for the similarities between Tamils and Australians, while those at genetic level could be probable due to the early migration from Africa, I feel that it accounts very little for the few linguistic similarities. And yeah, I was the guy who wrote the article on Tamil bell. I feel that there were interactions made between South Indians and Pacific islanders or even Australians during the time of the Cholas. While Cholas sent embassies to China, then why is it not possible that they would've sent ships to Australia which is more or less the same distance.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 18:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The Mittani seem to have established a state in Northern Iraq even while India was in its early Vedic phase. And the Mittani kingdom did survive for a few centuries coexisting with the Mesapotamian monarchies of the south who were of Semitic origin. It was on basis of this example that I postulated that Aryanization could have been a slow process. Anyway, I agree that something different could have taken place in India.

As far as the Australian-Tamil connection is concerned, if ancient Tamils could have maintained regular contacts over such long distances over so long periods of time, then why is it not possible that they were the first ones to reach America or South Africa or other distant parts of the globe. However, I feel that this could not have been the case. There could have been chances that Tamils could have got to know of these lands but I believe that if such a discovery ever took place, then it could not have happened earlier than the period of the Pallavas. If at all such a voyage by Tamils to the south seas did take place, it could most probably have been between the 10th and 14th centuries AD.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 06:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 15:32, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting! Zoroaster, who founded Zoroastrianism, was actually not a Persian. He was a Mede. The Medes were an ethnic group who resided in the Elbruz mountains of Northern Iran while the Persians resided in Southern Iran. Both could be of Indo-European origin, but then this is not a necessity. It could be that one of them was of Indo-European origin while the other wasn't. But a majority of Persians, however, accepted the creed professed by Zoroaster who was a Mede.

The Medes gained their independence on the fall of Assyria in about 612 AD and extended their sway over most of Iran for about 100 years. During this time, the king of the Persians was a vassal of the Medes. And now, I could remember reading somewhere that Cyrus the great was born out of nuptial union between Cambyses I, the king of the Persians and the daughter of Astyages, the king of the Medes. Ironically, Cyrus led the Persians in the conquest of the Medes by supplanting his own grandfather from the throne. Well, well, I've recollected this piece of history only to illustrate the marriage between individuals of different tribes. Now, I guess this gives a faint idea of how these intermarriages suggested by genetic research could have taken place.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 17:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Wishing you a Happy Thai Pongal as well. Regards. Wiki Raja (talk) 04:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks my dear friend, many more happy pongals to you in WikipediaTaprobanus (talk) 06:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

many thanks 4 ur wishes & iwish u ta same ....

இனிய பொங்கல் திருநாள் வாழ்த்துக்கள்!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pearll's sun (talk • contribs) 14:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

-- Tinu Cherian - 12:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much :-). Have a look at this. And Arya Gowder Road in West Mambalam is named after Badaga leader Ari Gowder. Would be interesting to know who the Duraisamy of Duraisamy Subway, Thambiah Reddy, etc are. I'll create some more when I have time.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 19:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, could've been so. The streets in Parry's Corner are mainly named after the 17th and 18th century dubashes of the British East India Company. By the way, there was a Habibullah who was Diwan of Travancore in the early 1930s. I do not know whether he was the same person as Habibullah Baig.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 19:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Nope, we don't have an article for mayors of Chennai. Will be easier to create one. In fact, the mayoralty was created in 1680s and lasted until the mid 1700s before it was abolished. It was revived only in the 1930s. Raja Muthiah Chettiar was the first mayor after it was revived-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 19:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

There was a Sir Mohammad Habibullah[1] who was the Diwan of Travancore from 1934 to 1936 immediately preceding Sir C. P. Ramaswami Iyer. He also served as a member of the Viceroy's Executive Council. Though I am not aware if he had anything to do with Tamil Nadu, most Diwans of Travancore were ethnic Tamils. As most of the streets and localities in T. Nagar have been named after people who were active in the 1920s and 1930s when the colony grew, I feel that Habibullah Road could have been named after him. Are you sure it is named after Habibullah Baig? -Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 02:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

We've got lots of pending work, in fact, atleast as far as biographical articles are concerned. These are some of the subjects for which articles need to be created:

* Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha MPs from Tamil Nadu

* Rajas of Pudukkottai, Ramnad, Sivanganga and probably, Ettaiyapuram

* Diwans of Pudukkottai, Ramnad and Sivanganga

* Members of Viceroy's Council and Governor's Executive Council (wherever information is available) from Madras Presidency

These are some of the ones I can think of now. And if we create articles for these people, I guess WikiProject Tamilnadu's article count would increase by over 500. But let's see. We need to have time, and also the resources.

I can also think of some prominent socialites of the 19th century like Pundi Runganadha Mudaliar, Eardley Norton, etc and then, of course, Avadhanum Paupaiah-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 03:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, in case you are interested, have a look at this. I've submitted it for a DYK but it's yet to be approved. I've told them that it would be great if it could be on the main page on or before 18th when the fair gets over, but no response still. Well, by the way, could you okay it if possible. There is not much time now and it seems those people have an overload-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 03:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

As far as the episode concerning P. T. Rajan is concerned check out his article or especially this section. I've specified my references there. If you have doubts, please contact me.

Well, as far as Periyar's presidentship of the Justice Party is concerned, I found in some biographies of Periyar in tamilnation and other sites that he was made President of the Justice Party during the anti-Hindi agitations of 1938. I do not remember the names of those sites. I guess the fact is referenced in the biography in periyar.org website. I didn't add those references though, cause that claim, particular, was already there and I did not add it.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 02:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

No mention! As far as Periyar's assumption of leadership of Justice Party is concerned you may find the article on Periyar to be of help. I guess references are also present in Justice Party article, though I am not sure. -Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 02:55, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the notability guidelines are pretty vague and unclear. I guess "notability" of an article is influenced more by the number of references present. Let us see. The creation of articles on MPs is not an immediate priority-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 02:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Check this out - [2]. Cheers-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 04:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 23:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

A tag has been placed on Tamil National party requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a club, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guidelines for people and for organizations.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the article or have a copy emailed to you. Ironholds (talk) 17:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I would have thought it was fairly obvious from the tag; I nominated it for deletion because the article did not show any evidence of notability. In future please make sure that your article includes sufficient information to qualify before posting it to avoid misunderstandings like that; you obviously had the information, so I don't understand why you waited rather than including it in the initial post. Ironholds (talk) 18:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The issue there was that the article as it existed did not follow notability guidelines. Google actually has very little on the subject, and it is difficult to distinguish between an indian Tamil National party and any other Tamil National Party in sources. In response to your other comment: As mentioned, it was dealing with the page at hand, not what the page could be. You're obviously an experienced editor but I'll mention again; if you have the content try and include it in the first posting to avoid issues like this. Ironholds (talk) 18:30, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Additionally; please don't be patronising. Edit summaries such as 'a little google search, that's all it takes' and comments that start 'here on wiki...' are fairly patronising, especially to a long-term user. Either phrase it civilly and stop treating me like a five year old or take your message somewhere else. Ironholds (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I never accused you of being threatening, only patronising; don't put words in my mouth. I was not 'wrong' in that the article as it was did not fulfill the notability requirements. I do admit I should have looked harder for referencing, although again, so should you. I'm not quite sure why I'd want to take it to AfD talk: if you are suggesting I take it to AfD again, I don't know why. It has been established that the subject of the article (and, in its present form, the article itself) is perfectly valid; at no point in this conversation have I suggested otherwise. Ironholds (talk)

I'm not (and have not been throughout this conversation) angry. I would point out, however, that accusing someone of being 'angry' and putting words in their mouth can act as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ironholds (talk) 18:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Good article! Well, shall I nominate the article for a DYK? You suggest the hook you prefer and I'll nominate it. What do you say?-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 03:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. :-) Regardless of what you nominate, in the end, it's what the DYK admins accept which matters. At one point of time, I was highly frustrated with people who never knew where on earth Tamil Nadu was, mercilessly playing around with my DYK noms or suggesting ALT hooks which rarely made sense. Then I decided not to bother much about the hooks; ultimately, you do get the DYK.

Yeah, Maraimalai Adigal's movement was a Saivite movement. I consider his principles to be a remnant of the Bhakti movement. It does make sense, indeed. The Self-Respect Movement taught people to abhor religion, even the worship of Tamil gods, while at the same time, holding "Dravidian pride" as the cornerstone of its ideology. People like Maraimalai Adigal were more sensible; they did not hate religion, and at the same time, reasoned that Saivism or "Dravidian religion" is something to be proud of. This is what I feel. You may be having different views about it.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 14:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at it . Thanks Taprobanus (talk) 16:21, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Since we discussed this subject sometime back, I request you to have a look at this-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 04:26, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Would you mind if add you in Gtalk. Thanks-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 18:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I've sent my mail id as a reply to your Wikimail. I do not wish to put my mail id in your talk page as it would appear in search results.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 01:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I've approved the hook. Seems there is a heavy overload of DYKs. 13 nominations of mine (6 of them being self-noms) are still in the queue-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 16:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)