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This is the current revision of this page, as edited by SilverLocust (talk | contribs) at 20:27, 29 February 2024 (Removed reqmovetag from an old RM subst. The tag interferes with the rmCloser script for any later RM. (via WP:JWB)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this version.

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Reverts

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I am writing here to discuss the revert 1revert 2 by user:Chaipau. The content removed was included from book named 'A Study on Kāmrūpī: A Dialect of Assamese', page 5 by noted linguist 'Upendranath Goswami'. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 04:53, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the linguistic literature the modern dialect of Assamese (Kamrupi dialect, modern period, Kamrup region a small part of Assam) is distinguished from the historical language of Kamarupa (Kamarupi Prakrit, pre-14th century, entire Assam and North Bengal) that is the ancestor of Assamese as well as the Kamatapuri lects. No linguist claims that the two are same, and they cannot be. In a more recent PhD thesis, Toulmin 2006, p 14 [1], this distinction is clearly mentioned in the passage named "Kamrupa". Toulmin points out that "Kamrupa/Kamrupi" is used to refer to both the modern dialect as well as the historical language, even though they are different. Upendranath Goswami in the passage clearly is talking about the historical pre-14th century language when he says: "So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang district." Here, "Aryan language spoken first in Assam" refers to the historical period, and "Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang district" refers to the region. User:Bhaskarbhagawati cannot use the name "Kamrupi" to claim the historical Prakrit and the modern-day dialect to be the same.
This issue has been extensively discussed here as well as elsewhere (e.g. Talk:Kamarupi_Prakrit/Archive_2).
Chaipau (talk) 10:30, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am not making any claims here, nevertheless 'A Study on Kāmrūpī: A Dialect of Assamese', Page 6 and 'A Study on Kāmrūpī: A Dialect of Assamese', page 5 can help. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 16:59, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In addition revert 3 and revert 4, see A Study on Kāmrūpī: A Dialect of Assamese - Page 28. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 06:59, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

About the Third Opinion request: The Third Opinion request made in regard to this dispute has been removed (i.e. denied) Because like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, 3O requires thorough recent talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss (which does not appear to be the case here, but let me say just in case), consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:54, 21 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For revert 5, see A Study on Kāmrūpī: A Dialect of Assamese - Page 6. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 09:44, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Kamrupi dialect -> Kamrupi dialects_1

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Kamrupi is a group of dialects, not a single dialect. This has been accepted by recent scholarship. For example, the IITG website ([2]) clearly states the finding of recent research:

Several regional dialects are typically recognized. These dialects vary primarily with respect to phonology and morphology. A high degree of mutual intelligibility is enjoyed among the dialects. Banikanta Kakati has divided the Assamese dialects into two major groups.

However, recent studies have shown that there are four dialect groups, listed below from east to west:

  1. Eastern group spoken in and other districts around Sibsagar district.
  2. Central group spoken in present Nagaon district and adjoining areas.
  3. Kamrupi group spoken in undivided Kamrup, Nalbari, Barpeta, Darrang, Kokrajhar and Bongaigaon.
  4. Goalparia group spoken in Goalpara, Dhubri, Kokrajhar and Bongaigaon districts
The said article is not new and is best example of lax writing. Notable scholars have wrote extensively about Assamese dialects, many of them are Phd works. Kakati wrote various works on subject which are considered pioneer works, where he done thorough comparitive study. His works are supported by later scholars.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 00:41, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Background

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Banikanta Kakati's work was seminal, but it is old. He completed his thesis in 1935 and published the thesis in the form of a book in 1941---his work is 83 years old. He had identified two dialects: Eastern and Western. G C Goswami has, within a few decades, divided the Eastern dialect further into Eastern and Central. U N Goswami established the Kamrupi dialect within the Western dialect and the Western dialect was divided into Kamrupi and Goalpariya dialects.

It is now observed that these 4 dialects have within their regional areas further dialectal diversity. That is what the IITG website claims. This classification is accepted generally, and the RCILTS website is quoted in scholarships. (e.g. Nath et. al. "A Preliminary Study on the VOT Patterns of the Assamese Language and Its Nalbaria Variety", p543).

The claim that Kamrupi is not a single dialect, but a group of dialects in evidenced in recent scholarship on Barpetia and Nalbaria dialects, two dialects that are part of the Kamarupi group:

Wikipedia should follow recent scholarship and the title of this article should be Kamrupi dialects, and not Kamrupi dialect. It should also align with the convention used in the article Goalpariya dialects, which has the plural "s".

Chaipau (talk) 10:17, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kakati as i mentioned is considered pioneer in science of linguistics. His works on Assamese language are expanded by noted scholars like S. Sarma, U.C. Goswami, G.C. Goswami and many others. U.N. Goswami contributed more than other on this subject including a Phd work, links are there in this article. As he wrote dedicated work on subject, this article will be prepared as such. Speculative works will confuse readers and need to taken out.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 00:41, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent research is not speculative. Kakati's work (1935) is nearly ninety years old. If we go by that work alone, then this article should not exist, because he did not identify the Kamrupi dialect. U N Goswami's work (1971) is nearly fifty years old which identifies the Kamrupi dialect. And in this 50 years, much work has been done, using modern methods of data collection. The older linguists did not apply electronic data collection methods, whereas the modern researchers are increasingly using modern linguistic methods. Against these methods, it is the older linguists' methods that are beginning to look more speculative. Chaipau (talk) 12:49, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The recent findings are not the product of a single linguist, but many. And these finding do not contradict the works of Kakati and Goswami but show them as incomplete. So please do not keep rejecting the recent findings. Chaipau (talk) 00:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of recent brief mentions here and there, which is inline with above mentioned scholars, if fact they quoted Goswami and Kakati. Avoid cherry pickings from amateurs and random webpages. Linguists clearly equited it as 'one' ancient language with long history and its lost prestige later.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:41, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they quote Kakati and Goswami because they are extending their work, not negating them. The people you call amateurs are University professors. The webpages you call "random" are official pages of the RCILTS, a network of centers established by the Government of India across the country. These are quoted in academic papers and published in journals and conference proceedings. If you do not agree to these changes, please take the matter to the relevant forum on Wikipedia. Chaipau (talk) 12:21, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you do not agree with current title, kindly follow move request process, we can continue discussion here.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 04:20, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Spellings

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@Chaipau: Hi, do the native speakers call it Kamrupi? isn't it কামৰূপীয়া (kamrupia)? And many spellings are wrong. For example do Kamrupia speakers say /manuʃ/, should not it end with /h/? And in many spellings different letters are used for the same sound. For example ঘৰক /ɡʱɔɾɔk/ is written as "gharok". I think IPA should be used instead of other romanisations because they can vary and hence misleading, or atleast the original Assamese spellings. I'm also looking forward for an article for Assamese dialects. Sagir Ahmed Msa (talk) 04:57, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sagir Ahmed Msa: Thanks for bringing these issues up. I have heard natives calling it kothito (spoken) as opposed to likhito (standard Assamese). But Kamrupia is probably correct. I shall keep a lookout for a reference and insert it. It is called Kamrupi in most English works and that is why it is used here. Yes, /manuʃ/ is wrong and it should end with /h/. I agree on IPA, maybe we can have the romanization alongside. We have a section on Assamese dialects (Assamese_language#Dialects) and maybe we need an article dedicated to it. Chaipau (talk) 12:03, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Chaipau: Thanks! Sagir Ahmed Msa (talk) 12:28, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please consider

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@Bhaskarbhagawati: If you do not understand linguistics please avoid it since wikipedia is not your private website. And please try to avoid politics. You can promote the language without being dishonest. I am telling you again that the 15th century and 2018 forms of a language are not the same, they are different languages. Sound change is a thing. If you want to contribute to linguistic topics, you should first study linguistics. Msasag (talk) 05:17, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are there recent edits that you object to? — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 16:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Msasag Well, yes i am not a linguist but i do read experts and this article is prepared as such. Original research is not allowed here, even by scholars. What is political here ? You can say that modern Kamrupi language changed from medieval variety, still it is the same language. We have separate article for ancient Kamrupi language, i invite you to create a separate article for medieval Kamrupi language. The word 'manushya' is used by Kamrupi people even today. Are you from Kamrup region ?भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 17:12, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Ƶ§œš¹: Yes mainly the recents because the earlier edits are maybe because of misunderstanding, but many of the recent edits are clearly ignorance.
@Bhaskarbhagawati: It is ok if you add wrong infos due to misunderstanding, but if someone corrects it why do you revert? if there are no sources of the corrections, why dont you remove the whole thing? not having mistakes is better than having. Well i am from central assam which shares border with Kamrup, but why should that matter? You know that the term "theng" is present in standard Assamese too, but still you removed it just to make more differences between eastern Assamese and Kamrupi to show that Kamrupi is a different language from eastern Assamese. According to linguistics all dialects and political dialects are also languages and political languages can be dialects of some very closely related languages. And no language is superior or informal. Do you know about loanword? Even in Medieval Kamrupi the word মনুষ্য (manuṣya/monusyo/monuisso) is a loanword from Sanskrit মনুষ্য/ मनुष्य (manuṣya), and the modern eastern Assamese and Kamrupi word monuisso is also a loanword. The inherited term which is cognate to the Sanskrit loanword is মুনিহ (munih) in eastern Assamese. You added "ch" which is pronounced similar to the British English pronunciation of the "ch" in "choice" and this sound is absent in pure Kamrupi. When the romanisation "o" represents the /ɔ/ sound in most of the words, then why need to use "a" in some words for the same sound? I can say the same for the "ch" too if you think that "ch" and "s" represent the same sound which is /s/ since in many words "s" is used which had /tʃ/ and /tʃʰ/ earlier. I think the comparisons should be among native (tadbhava/inherited) and semantic changes and loanwords should not be included to show a proper phonological comparison. And no, medieval and modern Kamrupi are not the same language. If you want to add medieval Kamrupi words then add them separately as Medieval Kamrupi words, just like I did for Middle Assamese (which is most likely the late medieval form of central Assamese and probably eastern and western too). Msasag (talk) 10:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Msasag: Explain here why you reverted last two edits.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 16:31, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Bhaskarbhagawati: Hi, I asked you to study sounds and sound change, I don't know if you did or didn't, but it's clear that you still haven't understood or just ignored. Anyways, your link about "chowk" shows the English word which was Sanskritised from Assamese/Kamruipa. In IAST romanisation which is based on Sanskrit the value of চ is c, but generally it's Sanskritised as ch because it makes the /tʃ/ sound in English (and this sound isn't present in Kamruipa). And we know that English or Sanskrit ≠ Kamruipa. We should use only one romansation if the name of the romanisation isn't mentioned, it doesn't mislead learners.
In your 2nd edit your link shows some English and (Eastern) Assamese writings where the word কামৰূপী (kamrupi) is mentioned in the Assamese texts. This doesn't show that Kamrupi is the native Kamrupi/Kanruipa word, it rather shows the author's choice. In a public website we should try to avoid misleading infos. There are lots of sources on internet, that doesn't mean we can pick anything, we should try to bring the correct informations only. Msasag
Thank you; i encourage you to see WP:OR.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 20:48, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article has some major flaws.

  • It conflates medieval Assamese with present-day Kamrupi dialect. This is a long standing problem with this article.
  • Many of the examples given are WP:OR. For example, the sentences given as examples of Kamrupi in Buranjis; the glossarial examples etc. No sources are given.
  • I do not see any reason to include Sylheti here, given that there is no discussion on Sylheti and its relationship to Kamrupi in the text.
  • If OR is not tolerated for scholars as well (I don't know what this means), then we should remove all opinions that are quoted from the preface of books---books that originated in theses. Random comments by past scholars are profusely quoted even if their opinions do not have much value now.

Chaipau (talk) 23:15, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

False claims

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@Chaipau:, @Bhaskarbhagawati:, It's important to preserve Kamrupi Assamese which is being replaced by Standard Assamese and unfortunately considered as informal. But we should avoid false informations. In the 1st part ("Irrespective of dialect status today, Kamrupi is directly separated from Magadhi Prakrit, along with other middle eastern Indo Aryan languages like Radhi, Vanga and Varendri.[41] This form of Apabhramsa, further gave rise to modern Assamese in east.") in "History" section, Kamrupi dialect of Assamese is confused with the Kamarupi group of Bengali-Assamese languages, that includes Assamese, Eastern Goalpariya, Kamtapuri, Surjapuri, Nepali Rajbanshi, Tajpuria languages. And others: Rarhi, Bangic and Varendri are also different groups of Bengali-Assamese languages that include languages like Bengali in Rarhic; Sylheti, Mymensinghiya, Nokhailla, Chittagonian, Puran Dhakaya, Chakma etc in Bangic; Rajshahia and Maldahia in Varendri.
The 2nd part ("All ancient and medieval Assamese literature is written in Kamrupi,[69][9][70] before usage of eastern variety by American Christian missionaries, to translate bible in the middle 19th century.") is also false. Assamese dialects are related to each other and so have the same origin. The variety of ancient literature was probably not differentiated into different dialects yet. Sankardev was from Nagaon where Central Assamese is spoken. Madhavdev was from Lakhimpur where Eastern Assamese is spoken. Madhav Kandali was also from Central Assam. And so their works are in ancestors of these dialects. This article mentions that Hastividyarnava puthi is written in Kamrupi dialect, but it's clearly in Eastern Assamese. A line from Hastividyarnava puthi: "ak hothate box koribo nüari, puza-ere-he box koribo pari." ("ak" is not related or similar to "iak". iak comes from i and related to xi. While "ak" is related to "ta-k". Similar to "iat-tat" and "öt-töt" which is related to "köt-zöt".). In Kamrupi it should be close to modern "ak hothate box korba nori, puza-edi-he bor korba pari.". Tripura buranji was also probably written in Eastern or Central. Msasag (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Msasag we are reproducing what citations are saying, original research and removal of sourced content is not allowed here.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 06:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Msasag: I agree. There is a lot of WP:OR here. For example, "Kamarupi dialect" of Magadhi is being read as "Kamrupi dialect" of Assamese here. Chaipau (talk) 06:15, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bhaskarbhagawati: Removing false contents isn't allowed? Msasag (talk) 19:04, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can tag unsourced claims for references, this article is built on works of eminent linguist and historian of Assam, thus accurate. I have also added quotes alonside references. Mere arguements for POV pushing is not suitable, see wp:verifiability.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 09:56, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Removed references do not have any relevance

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  • ই সকলোবোৰ ৰচনাৰ ভিতৰত ১৬ শ-১৭ শ শতিকাত পীতাম্বৰ সিদ্ধান্ত বাগীশে ৰচনা কৰা ১৮ খন কৌমুদী'কামৰূপী পদ্ধতি আৰু হিন্দু সংস্কাৰৰ সৰ্বভাৰতীয় পদ্ধতি উভয়ৰে ক্ষেত্ৰত আটাইতকৈ উল্লেখযোগ্য ৰচনাৱলী ॥ is about Kamrupi mores or culture.
  • কামৰূপী সঙ্গীতৰ বৈশিষ্ট্যৰ ব্যঞ্জন কৰিছে। প্রতীক-ধর্মী কাব্যিক নাটৰূপে এনে ব্যঞ্জনাত্মক ভাব-মাহাত্ম্যত নাটখনিৰ সার্থকতা। - “উদাৰ-চৰিতানাং তু বস্থধৈৱ কুটুম্বকম”—'লুইত কোৱৰ নাটৰ ৰহস্যৰ অন্তৰালত এই উদাৰ মহান ভাব এটি ধ্বনিত হৈছে। is about Kamrupi music.
  • অকল যে তেওঁলােকৰ ক্ষমতা সিমান দূৰীলৈকে ব্যাপ্ত হৈছিল এনে নহয়, কামৰূপৰ ব্ৰহ্মণ সমাজৰ আচাৰ ব্যৱহাৰ, কৃষ্টি আৰু সভ্যতা, কামৰূপী ব্ৰাহ্মণে সেইবিলাক ঠাইত গৈ চলাইছিল আৰু তাৰ চিন আজিকোপৰ্যন্ত সেই সেই দেশৰ লােক সমাজত পোৱা যায় । is about spread of culture from Kamarupa.

These quotes (and references) are not relevant in Kamrupi dialect.

Chaipau (talk) 08:43, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They are included because some editors are using different spellings for Kamrupi.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 03:44, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Improving this article

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Hello @Msasag: @Bhaskarbhagawati: I wish to seek your help to improve this article and make it look like an encyclopedia article, rather than a political battlefield that it does now. It should have enough information for a general reader.

Here are a few topics we could discuss and come to a convergence on

Is Kamrupi dialect (today) the same as the language from the 12th century?

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Kamrupi dialect (modern) is different from Kamarupi Prakrit, as reported by Goswami (1970) and recorded here: 505506953

  • Final vowels are dropped: OIA (-a) > MIA (-a) > Kamrupi (-zero) (Other such examples are given in Goswami, p51-55)
  • In Kamrupi the initial stress results in loss of vowels in the interior. This is one of the major difference between Kamrupi and eastern Assamese as well as with MIA. For example badli (Kamrupi), vatuli (Sanskrit), baduli (standard Assamese) (Goswami p67). A celebrated examples is pumpkin gourd: kumra (Kamrupi), kusmandaka (Sanskrit), Kumhandaa (Prakrit), komora (Standard Assamese) (Goswami p66). Note that the "d" in Sanskrit and Prakrit are transcribed with the retroflex flap.
  • The dative -lai which are seen in the Caryas (meru shikhara lai, Carya 47) (Goswami 1970, p230) is not found in Kamrupi but found in Standard Assamese.

Specifically, Kamarupi Prakrit had language features that are preserved in Eastern Assamese (e.g. -lai) which are absent in the Kamrupi dialect today. Therefore, the effort to somehow indicate that the Kamrupi dialect is the old language should be dropped.

Chaipau (talk) 17:09, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A name game is being played by Bhaskarbhagawati. The modern region of Kamrup has the same name as the ancient region of Kamarupa which was larger. It doesn't mean it's only about the Kamarupi prakrit (which Mr Bhaskarbhagawati calls 'Old Kamrupi') and Kamrupi dialect of Assamese. Kamtapuri lects, Eastern Goalpariya, other dialects of Assamese are not different, they are also descendants of the Kamarupi prakrit. Rather than promoting the true meaning (i.e linguistic meaning) of 'dialect', a propaganda based on misunderstandings and lies is being spread with no certain aim. Eastern Assamese, Central Assamese and 'Standard Assamese' are also dialects of Assamese language. I don't consider Western Goalpariya (spoken in Dhubri, Kokrajhar, Western Goalpara in Assam. And also in Rangpur division of Bangladesh and North Bengal of West Bengal where they are falsely counted as dialects of Bengali. Though recently it got regional official status in West Bengal so there are some hope) as a dialect of Assamese because linguistically it's not. And I'm not sure about Eastern Goalpariya which is spoken in Bongaigaon and Eastern Goalpara districts. Dialect doesn't mean inferior, it means a very closely related and mutually very intelligible language. A contributor should have knowledge about the topic to differentiate between reliable and non reliable sources. Msasag (talk) 19:54, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Msasag, I agree. Since this is an article on a linguistic topic, I think we should bring the focus back to linguistics. Chaipau (talk) 23:09, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Its not about what editors thinks, its what reliable sources says, editors are not supposed to include unpublished facts.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 03:41, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Bhaskarbhagawati: Then please stick with your words. "It's not about what the editor thinks", correct, stop confusing between Kamarupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect of Assamese. In comparison to other descendants of Kamarupi Prakrit, the only thing that it common between Kamarupi prakrit and Kamrupu dialect of Assamese and distinct from others is their names. Just because the names are same or similar in case of some sources that used an extra "a" in "kamArupi" especially for the Prakrit doesn't mean Kamrupi dialect of Assamese is the only descendant of Kamarupi Prakrit. I'm sorry for you and wikipedia readers that you can't understand simple things @Bhaskarbhagawati. And yes, add "reliable sources" only. Don't add unpublished and unreliable sources. Also the reason why wikipedia uses humans as editors instead of some current robots is probably because humans are about to have knowledge about the topic by themselves and are more advanced than current robots. So it's also a priority to differentiate between reliable and unreliable sources. Msasag (talk) 13:18, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Msasag stay away from deleting citations from wikipedia, it amounts to wp:disruptive editing which has consequences for editors. It is second time i am reminding you.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 20:07, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Bhaskarbhagawati, the citation has to make sense. Searching for favorable quotes from the web has given you too many false positives. Chaipau (talk) 12:47, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Editors are not allowed to fast check reliable sources as per wp:rsn, so called web searches are actually books written by eminent linguist of Assam.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:17, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is this article about a dialect or a region?

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I have moved the section on linguistic features up. Bhaskarbhagawati moved it down, but I moved it down again. @Bhaskarbhagawati: please discuss here before moving it down again. The section on region is too bloated, especially given that there is a main article dedicated to the topic: Kamrup region. Chaipau (talk) 14:50, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly don't make major changes to article at this point of time, it is going through serious issues.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 20:12, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
O.K Chaipau, your last edit lead to deletion of sizable content and reliable sources. Due to its size i follow up one at a time, which will be convenient for you too. So first, why do you believe Upendranath Goswami should not be used in this article ?भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure the issue is not whether to use Goswami, but that your reading of Goswami's works is incorrect. — Ƶ§œ��¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 19:12, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you and agreed, nevertheless that should not be the reason to exclude him.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:36, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is excluding him. Your edits are being undone because you're adding problematic content. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 20:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, my so called problematic content are there in article for last few years including Goswami.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 21:34, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ƶ§œš¹ as you are involved, you seems still interested in the subject ? If so, try to answer my first question, then i move on to next one.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 07:07, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

user:Bhaskarbhagawati just because someone does not agree with you does not mean the person is not independent. Chaipau (talk) 11:58, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I find this strange situation where I introduced the reference Goswami (1970) 501859957 and Bhaskarbhagawati deleted it 502129035. It is clear from you edits that you have had a POV to push. Goswami 1970 is a valuable work but your POV prevents you from seeing its true worth. Chaipau (talk) 11:58, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course he is, although last time as layman (on subject) he is won over by your well designed arguments (not sources ?). The 2012 example you provided is not in correct context, that happened when you are attempting to divide Kamrupi (language) article into two for unknown reasons, was redirected to original page. As you answered my first question honestly, now you should not mass delete Goswami as you did multiple times recently, even if he don't align with your position. I do reproduced exactly what he said with full quotes (not cherry pickings as claimed by Aeusoes1). So, who is censoring Goswami now ?भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 13:37, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT is disruptive editing, let me point out. It has been seven years now and yet you have not accepted the consensus on this point. Here is user:Kwamikagami disputing your assertions: 502377930. Please move on. Chaipau (talk) 14:15, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Updating citations is not disruption, deleting reliable sources is wp:disruptive editing. Consensus do changes with time. Again you put in 2012 selective conversation, he too said that he is open for evidences, but you seems not ?भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 16:45, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus changes with discussion regarding proposed changes. So far, no such discussion has occurred. We've just got this meta-discussion that isn't productive.
Bhagawati, am I correct that you would like to see the article reflect that Kamarupa Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect are the same? — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:28, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ƶ§œš¹ its not important what a editor wants, article should only reproduce what reliable sources saying ?भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 10:41, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, it's clear you're wasting everyone's time here. I caution other editors not to feed into Bhaskarbhagawati's talk page disruption by responding, lest the talk page get bloated with pointless and unproductive chatter. Regards. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:01, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Aeusoes, you are welcome, it will be better if you stayed, anyway.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 16:23, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Aeusoes1: I shall not feed this troll. But no one has the right to ask another to stay away from a collaborative work. I wonder whether this is covered in some policy. Probably WP:OWNBEHAVIOR Chaipau (talk) 16:56, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Because you lack proper sources, and when i said stay away ?, i said he should have stayed at current talk, see quote mining and opportunism.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 17:02, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bhaskarbhagawati is trying to pass of references (which he had originally rejected) at the WP:RSN so he could continue his disruptive editing here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Removal_of_reliable_sources. Chaipau (talk) 17:04, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is the correct rhotic in Kamrupi? Is it /ɾ/ or /ɹ/?

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@Msasag: do you have any input here? Is there a difference in consonants from Standard Assamese in this and other consonants? Chaipau (talk) 15:20, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Msasag: I know that the ঝ phoneme is different and unique in the south Kamrupi dialect (Palasbari) among all dialects of Assamese outside the Goalparia dialects. Any other difference? Chaipau (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Chaipau: It is [ɾ] in Kamrupi dialects. And I've heard [r] also. In standard Assamese it is [ɹ] and in Eastern sometimes and especially in Central the r sound is absent or very light, maybe the vocalic /r̩/, unsure. Msasag (talk) 11:51, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on Title of Old Form of Language

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There is a Request for Comments at Talk:Kamarupi Prakrit on the proper primary title of that article. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on Lede Paragraph

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Which of two versions of the lede paragraph of this article, Kamrupi dialect, should be used?

Please choose version A, which is the current version, or version B, in the Survey. Do not reply to other editors in the Survey. Extended discussion may take place in the Threaded Discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:01, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Status Quo (version A)

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The Kamrupi dialect is a group of regional dialects of Assamese language,[1] spoken in the Kamrup region. It formerly enjoyed prestige status.[2] It is one of two western dialect groups of the Assamese language, the other being Goalpariya.[3] Kamrupi is heterogeneous with three subdialects— Barpetia dialect, Nalbaria dialect and Palasbaria dialect.[4]

In medieval times, Kamrupi was used in the Brahmaputra Valley and its adjoining areas for literary purposes in parallel with Sanskrit, both for prose and poetry. This went against the practices of literary figures of mid India like Vidyapati who used Sanskrit for prose and Maithili for poetry.[5] In more recent times, the South Kamrupi dialect has been used in the works of author Indira Goswami. Poet and nationalist Ambikagiri Raichoudhury also used Kamrupi in his works to great extent.[6] In 2018, the Kamrupi film Village Rockstars became the first from the region to be selected for India's official entry to the 91st Academy Awards.[7]

References

  1. ^ Kamrupi is defined as a dialect of Assamese in the title of the seminal work—Goswami, Upendranath (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese
  2. ^ (Goswami 1970:4) harvcol error: multiple targets (4×): CITEREFGoswami1970 (help)
  3. ^ (Kakati 1941, p. 16)
  4. ^ Goswami, , Upendranath (1970). A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese. Dept. of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam. p. 28. The sub-dialectical varieties of Kamrupi may be grouped mainly into three divisions —western, central and southern. The variety spoken in the area comprising Barpeta, Sundardiya, Patbausi, Bhabani- pur etc. is western, that of Nalbari and its surrounding areas is central.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  5. ^ Medhi, Kaliram (1988). Assamese grammar and origin of the Assamese language. Prose had also been used by the Maithili poets, Vidyapati, Harsanatha and others,--in their dramas. But whereas the Maithili poets prose was in Sanskrit and their songs alone in Maithili Sankara Deva's prose and songs were both in Kamrupi.
  6. ^ Sahitya Akademi, Indian literature: Volume 30, 1987 Ambikagiri set a new trend in Assamese by his abundant use of Kamrupi language in his writings.
  7. ^ "'Village Rockstars, Film On Guitar-Playing Girl, Is India's Oscar Entry'". Retrieved 11 October 2018.

Version B

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Kamrupi dialect (formerly Kamrupi language)[1] was first Indo-Aryan language spoken in North Bengal, Western Assam and parts of central Assam, is also a modern dialect of Assamese language, that formerly enjoyed prestige status.[2][3][4]

Kamrupi is heterogeneous with three subdialects— West (Barpeta), Central (Nalbari) and South Kamrupi (Palashbari).[5] In medieval times, Kamrupi was used in the Brahmaputra Valley and its adjoining areas for literary purposes in parallel with Sanskrit, both for prose and poetry. This went against the practices of literary figures of mid India like Vidyapati who used Sanskrit for prose and Maithili for poetry.[6]

In more recent times, the South Kamrupi dialect has been used in the works of author Indira Goswami. Poet and nationalist Ambikagiri Raichoudhury also used Kamrupi in his works to great extent.[7] In 2018, the Kamrupi film Village Rockstars became the first from the region to be selected for India's official entry to the 91st Academy Awards.[8]भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 08:00, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Sen, Nigam, Sukumar, Ramesh Chandra (1975). Grammatical sketches of Indian languages with comparative vocabulary and texts, Volume 1. p. 33.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  2. ^ Goswami, Upendranath (1970). A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese. Department of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam. p. 4. Assam from ancient times, was known as Kamarupa till the end of the Koch rule (17th century) and ancient Kamarupa comprised the whole of North Bengal including Cooch-Behar, and the Rangpur and Jalpaiguri districts of Bengal. Its permanent western boundary is said to have been the river Karatoya in North Bengal according to the Kalika Purana and Yoginitantra, both devoted to geographical accounts of ancient Kamarupa. So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang districts. As also put by K.L. Barua "the Kamrupi dialect was originally a variety of eastern Maithili and it was no doubt the spoken Aryan language throughout the kingdon which then included the whole of the Assam Valley and the whole of Northern Bengal with the addition of the Purnea district of Bihar". It is in this Kamrupi language that the early Assamese literature was mainly written. Up to the seventeenth century as the centre of art, literature and culture were confined within western Assam and the poets and the writers hailed from this part, the language of this part also acquired prestige.The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati, the author of a small poem, Prahrada Caritra, who composed his verses under his patron, King Durlabhnarayana of Kamatapur who is said to have ruled in the latter part of the 13th century. Rudra Kandali translated Drone Parva under the patronage of King Tamradhvaja of Rangpur. The most considerable poet of the pre-vaisnavite period is Madhava Kandali, who belonged to the present district of Nowgong and rendered the entire Ramayana into Assamese verse under the patronage of king Mahamanikya, a Kachari King of Jayantapura. The golden age in Assamese literature opened with the reign of Naranarayana, the Koch King. He gathered round him at his court at Cooch-Behar a galaxy of learned man. Sankaradeva real founder of Assamese literature and his favourite disciple Madhavadeva worked under his patronage. The other-best known poets and writers of this vaisnavite period namely Rama Sarasvati, Ananta Kandali, Sridhar Kandali, Sarvabhauma Bhattacharyya, Dvija Kalapachandra and Bhattadeva, the founder of the Assamese prose, all hailed from the present district of Kamarupa. During Naranaryana's reign "the Koch power reached its zenith. His kingdom included practically the whole of Kamarupa of the kings of Brahmapala's dynasty with the exception of the eastern portion known as Saumara which formed the Ahom kingdom. Towards the west the kingdom appears to have extended beyond the Karatoya, for according to Abul Fasal, the author of the Akbarnamah, the western boundary of the Koch kingdom was Tirhut. On the south-west the kingdom included the Rangpur district and part of Mymensingh to the east of the river Brahmaputra which then flowed through that district," The Kamrupi language lost its prestige due to reasons mentioned below and has now become a dialect which has been termed as Kamrupi dialect as spoken in the present district of Kamrup.
  3. ^ Bangladesh Itihas Samiti (1999), Sylhet: History and Heritage , Page 591 Suniti Kumar Chatterjee in his Origin and Development of Bangla Language (ODBL) divided the Bangla dialect into four groups in accordance with the name of the regions such as Rada, Pundra or Barindra, Banga and Kamrupi
  4. ^ Barma, Sukhbilas (2007), Socio-Political Movements In North Bengal (A Sub-Himalayan ... Suniti Kumar Chatterji, in "The Origin and Development of the Bengali Language" published in 1926 has given to this dialect of North Bengal the name 'Kamrupi'
  5. ^ Goswami, , Upendranath (1970). A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese. Dept. of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam. p. 28. The sub-dialectical varieties of Kamrupi may be grouped mainly into three divisions —western, central and southern. The variety spoken in the area comprising Barpeta, Sundardiya, Patbausi, Bhabani- pur etc. is western, that of Nalbari and its surrounding areas is central.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  6. ^ Medhi, Kaliram (1988). Assamese grammar and origin of the Assamese language. Prose had also been used by the Maithili poets, Vidyapati, Harsanatha and others,--in their dramas. But whereas the Maithili poets prose was in Sanskrit and their songs alone in Maithili Sankara Deva's prose and songs were both in Kamrupi.
  7. ^ Indian literature: Volume 30. Sahitya Akademi. p. 1987. Ambikagiri set a new trend in Assamese by his abundant use of Kamrupi language in his writings.
  8. ^ "'Village Rockstars, Film On Guitar-Playing Girl, Is India's Oscar Entry'". Retrieved 10 May 2019.

Survey

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  • False dichotomy. Both versions have their strengths and should be merged. The second seems to have a problem in its first sentence and thus its general thrust, in alleging that one term is a former name, which implies no sources still use it; this doesn't seem accurate. It's not WP's job to pick a side in a real-world dispute, but lay out what the dispute is and what the sides are, within WP:DUE bounds.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:22, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded Discussion

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Real-world dispute: @SMcCandlish: as far as I can see, there is no real-world dispute. Most of the claims in the second version come from sources older than 1978 (e.g., Medhi, Kaliram (1988) is a posthumous publication based on a 1936 work in Assamese). In 1978 the name Kamarupi Prakrit was coined. This was accepted by different authors, including Upendranath Goswami, whose pre-1978 (actually 1950s PhD thesis) is been used to create a dispute that does not exist. This dispute exists only in Wikipedia—and the question whether Kamrupi dialect is the same as Kamarupi Prakrit, has been answered in WP:DRN. (Disclaimer: I am a party in this dispute.) Chaipau (talk) 11:12, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We are in agreement with the point that there are no real world dispute on the subject. We have single long standing article on the subject till 2012, till then i am not involved as major editor on the subject. In 2012, Chaipau divided it, subsequently burden of proof for its original position fell on me. Even after, the standing lede was [3], which is recently changed by Chaipau.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 10:58, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on Historical Note

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Should the statement in the second paragraph, "In medieval times, Kamrupi was used in the Brahmaputra Valley and its adjoining areas for literary purposes in parallel with Sanskrit, both for prose and poetry" be changed to "In late medieval times Kamrupi forms are found in prose, such as those compiled in the Kamrupar Buranji." Robert McClenon (talk) 15:43, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer Yes or No with a brief explanation in the Survey. Do not discuss in the Survey. Discuss in the Threaded discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:43, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Threaded Discussion

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As SMcCandlish said in another survey above, the Rfc statement offers a false dichotomy . Particularly in a subject area with such a longstanding and complex set of disputes, Rfc questions should be carefully worded to present two (or a small number) of choices in one variable, ideally as a minimal pair with everything else kept the same, with the exception of the one changing variable. But I count eight variables in this Rfc:

  • when: In medieval times or In late medieval times
  • subj.: Kamrupi vs. Kamrupi forms (presume the first one means, "Kamrupi language")
  • Verb: ...was used vs. ...were found
  • where: in the Brahmaputra Valley and its adjoining areas vs. (no analogous location)
  • what for: for literary purposes vs. (no analogous purpose)
  • other lang: in parallel with Sanskrit vs. (not along side another language)
  • style: both for prose and poetry vs. in prose
  • example: (no example) vs. such as those compiled in the Kamrupar Buranji

This leads to 256 possible options. As it is, it's an impossible question. One of these parameters should have been offered as a choice, and all the rest of them kept the same. Imho, the Rfc should be withdrawn. Mathglot (talk) 02:16, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot:, @SMcCandlish: somehow I missed this. Is it possible to offer the your comments in each of the points listed above? I am sure we can come to a compromise sentence. We are very eager to get this RfC going and finished, and seek your help. Or any other suggestion? Chaipau (talk) 22:08, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 May 2019

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus that dialect is the most suitable term for the subject of this article, as there is mutual intelligibility between Kamrupi and other Assamese dialects, and there is no political recognition of Kamrupi as a language. Although scholars do not unanimously consider Kamrupi a dialect, the majority opinion of editors in this RfC who have analyzed the available sources conclude that dialect is a more suitable classification than language. Some editors have suggested that Kamrupi comprises more than one dialect; any interested editor may submit another requested move to Kamrupi dialects or a more appropriate title. (non-admin closure) — Newslinger talk 06:33, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kamrupi dialect → Kamrupi language – As per suggestion at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Kamrupi discussion#Eighteenth Statements by Editors and suggestions that dialects are sometimes also referred to as languages. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2019 (UTC) Robert McClenon (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. DannyS712 (talk) 21:15, 10 June 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I favour changing the title of "Kamrupi dialect" to "Kamrupi language" as a natural language, in line of Sylheti language which is considered dialect of Bengali language, Bhojpuri language, Awadhi language which are considered dialects of Hindi language and such. Historically this article was named "Kamrupi" but it was changed to "Kamrupi dialect" in 2012 citing title of Upendranath Goswami's work listed here in Talk:Kamrupi_dialect#Resources for commentators, where it is named as "Kamrupi language" (please check out the work to make a opinion).भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 16:32, 26 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that the modern "Kamrupi dialect" is most usefully described as a dialect of modern Assamese, sharing with other such dialects a high degree of mutual intelligibility. It is also helpful to continue to use a name that clearly distinguishes Kamrupi dialect from the postulated Kamarupi Prakrit, the supposed ancestor of Kamrupi dialect and also of a large number of other tongues. Richard Keatinge (talk) 22:17, 26 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There are definite language movements, and definite linguistic reasons too, for establishing Bhojpuri, Sylheti languages as languages on their own rights—many of these movements have political overtones. For example, the Sylheti-as-a-language is strong in and around London, but the Sylheti speakers from Assam do not claim it is a different language. There are some definite movements for the Bhojpuri and Maithili languages too. The Maithili movement has so far yielded a separate script—Tirhuta. All these movements are trying to establish a "dialect" as a separate language. I don't see any such movement for claiming the Kamrupi dialect as a language separate from the Assamese language. Rather, what is being attempted here is the establishment of the Kamrupi dialect as the fountainhead of the Assamese language and the KRNB lects (by equating Kamarupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect, for instance). This has no linguistic or real world political basis. If we were to move this article to Kamrupi language, we would be initiating a movement in Wikipedia the counterpart of which does not exist in the real-world. Chaipau (talk) 23:14, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We had numerous language movements in late 19th century and early 20th century for "Kamrupi language". There are numerous scholarly works on this movements, one of the latest is Sengupta, Madhumita (2016). Becoming Assamese: Colonialism and New Subjectivities in Northeast India.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 14:21, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey: language vs. dialect

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Discussion: language vs. dialect

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Linguists do use both terms, but they are rather wishy-washy about it. My sense is that unlike many terms, such as morpheme or tagmeme or allophone which all have clear definitions, language and dialect do not; rather, they are more like convenience terms, depending what specific linguistic subject is being addressed. The famous epigram in this area is of course, "A language is a dialect with an army and navy". That said, we can fall back on what the "majority of reliable sources say", but it's a bit of an apples-vs.-oranges kind of thing, where "more" attestations of L over D (or vice versa) may not indicate "agreement" among linguists that's it's one or the other, but rather it may indicate that there are more studies about it in one context, rather than the other. I.e, if we're tallying RSes, we may not be measuring what it is, but in what context it has been studied and reported on. Possiby a subtle difference, and maybe there's no other, or no better way to do it. But just wanted to raise the issue, so people could factor it in, while thinking about the question. Mathglot (talk) 02:28, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As an actual Linguist, I assure you the above is NOT how we distinguish between a language and a dialect. Generally speaking, the rule is one of "Mutual Intelligibility" or Can speakers of two "Dialects" pretty much understand each other? If yes, they are dialects. If no, they are separate languages. That is simplifying a very complex issue since some Languages start out as dialects of each other, diverge to the degree of Mutual Unintelligibility, then over hundreds of years can come back together as one language and diverge again. It's not a perfect method of coming down on one side or another, but it's better than the a saying that a language is a langauge if it has a Navy & an Army. If the two Dialects cannot be understood by speakers of one or the other to a reasonable degree, then they are separate languages by the old rules of Linguistics. There are problems with that, of course. For example, My husband is a native speaker of American English but cannot understand me when I speak my native dialect of Hiberno-English. It's just gibberish to him. Of course, Hiberno-English is not unintelligible to all speakers of American-English, so it remains a Dialect and not a Language, even though the grammar is different, the vocabulary is often different and tonality is used. The issue is similar to that of Oneida and Mohawk, two languages rather recently (in terms of Linguistics) separated langauges. To me, if you know one, you know the other, and for some native speakers of Mohawk, they have no trouble understanding Oneida but not often the other way around. Of course, there are fewer native speakers of Oneida than Mohawk , so that could play a role. So, there is middle ground but it usually when languages are either diverging or coming back together that such middle ground exists. Also, that ground exists when one dialect is fading in an area. My point is - it isn't all politics and silly Linguists making up rules. Mutual Intelligibility is the gold standard for distinguishing a dialect from a language and from there.. it's a mucky road of professional judgment, understanding the history of the languages/dialects, and knowing which dialect is in ascendency in terms of usage. Thanks for reading. LiPollis (talk) 17:10, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Lisapollison: the use of the term dialect, it seems, varies given the context. Mutual intelligibility is not necessary the only criterion for determining languages and dialects, especially in the context of a dialect continuum. In the present context, we may accept the term dialect to mean a variety, which means both the Kamrupi dialect as well as the standard variety of the Assamese language are both dialects among allied varieties. As far as the name of this article is concerned, we should continue to use the standard terminology—which is that it is a dialect (look at the title of the standard work on this variety—A Study on Kamrupi: A Dialect of Assamese). In fact, Kamrupi dialect does not define a single dialect but a group of dialects. Chaipau (talk) 18:45, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Lisapollison: Regarding mutual intelligibility: so which one is the dialect: Danish, or Norwegian? Urdu, or Hindi? Dutch or Afrikaans? Nobody said it was about silly linguists making up rules; I was trying to say, it was silly non-linguists making up rules, and the linguists were clever for not getting sucked into that silly debate. Or maybe I was wrong about that? Speaking of 'silly', that's one of my fave words, etymologically speaking, as I don't know a word that has changed meaning in English more than that one. Wikipedia has an easier job than linguists do: we can just see what the reliable sources say, and go with that. Mathglot (talk) 00:12, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lisapollison and Mathglot, try to make a opinion on our subject based on the works listed in our Talk:Kamrupi_dialect#Resources for commentators section and help us to reach a consensus.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 14:21, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't seem like an appropriate line of discussion. We should be depending on reliable sources, as Chaipau has indicated lead heavily towards dialect here, not debating the merits of various methods for distinguishing a dialect from a language. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:02, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We (me, Chaipau, Aeusoes, Richard Keating), the parties in dispute made our point. The uninvolved editors can also help with their opinions.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

After much reading and weighing of data, I say Dialect or Dialect family is most appropriate, based on the available sources. Of course the latter isn't really a choice since it's OR by me. I must say this is a very aggravating topic because clearly there is more going on with Kamrupi and its related dialects that ACT like a language family branch and not merely a group of similar dialects. That is my reading of all cited sources and also some private opinions I managed to pry loose from retired Linguists. But then, we have to rely on what sources we have, which are somewhat out of date. This is the very type of issue that makes for an excellent field of study for a new Ph.D candidate, from which a life's work could be derived. Of course, we cannot wait 15 or 20 years for a new body of work in this area. SO again, with regret, because I believe we are looking a Family branch of languages, I say using the term Dialect is the only proper course at this time. I assure you all, I did not arrive at this position without twisting myself into wikipedian knots trying to find a way to successfully argue the other position, which I believe may be a true argument, but not one that can be supported at this time by reliable sources. Opinion, even informed opinion, is Original Research. Thank you, however, for inviting me to familiarize myself with this issue, read the data and comment upon it. Sometimes the burden of being a volunteer editor on the world's biggest encyclopedia is to prevent procedural error since such error has a way of spreading from Wikipedia and into print. Once, an inexperienced editor fiddled with a fact I researched carefully and in changing my original statement by 1 letter/digit, they managed to embed that error into a folktale and it looks as if we can never stuff that genie back into the bottle even though we corrected the article. Wikipedia is so influential that even though I am inclined to agree with the argument for calling Kamrupi a language, there is not, in my opinion, a clear path through the cited sources to arrive at that conclusion without Synthesis and OR. Therefore, pending more data, using the term Dialect would be the correct action, in my opinion. LiPollis (talk) 08:22, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lisapollison thank you and welcome to discussion, yes indeed the Upendranath Goswami's 1958/1970 thesis/book is became somewhat old, nonetheless he is still considered expert on this subject and regularly reprinted. The language vs dialect debate, his citation [1] maybe of interest. Even if we consider linguistically it as dialect, can we follow the example of other wikipedia articles on dialect which are named xyz languages ? It is less likely that name will influence real life movements, as article will speak for itself ? भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 03:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Lisapollison: Indeed! The linguistic situation is such that it can support not just one PhD and a lifelong pursuit, but can open up an entirely new cross-functional focus area. In the last few hundred years many previously Tibeto-Burman speakers had taken to the Indo-Aryan Assamese, and many of them probably were previously Austro-asiatic speakers. Linguist Dipankar Moral had started looking into it, but unfortunately he passed away. Stephen Morey and a few others are approaching this in their own way. In this context, given also the ethnic strife, the debate whether Kamrupi is a dialect or a language is extremely constricting. And how right you are on your comment on the impact of Wikipedia. I know of at least one printed book that has taken this debate and spinned it according to its own political agenda. Chaipau (talk) 10:35, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lisapollison, there is consensus on "no real world dispute" on the subject.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:23, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely. There is no political activism to name Kamrupi a language. There is no mention in the academic literature either. But here in Wikipedia we are having a lengthy discussion. Chaipau (talk) 12:45, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you all for reading my comment. I offered it only as my reading of the literature. If I were still teaching Sociolinguistics or even Historical Linguistics, this is a topic I would now include. I learned a great deal from this experience and it will help me to be a more informed editor. I have read the responses to my posts and in them I see exactly why this issue continues to be one that is hard to resolve. I am still reading on the subject, using Google Books as my treasure map. Of course, this has led me down numerous Linguistic rabbit holes as I am fairly certain others have gone before. I still come down on the side of Dialect, even though I am not happy about it. Dipanker Moral is often cited, thanked and celebrated but sadly, I can find nothing he published that would settle the issue in a different direction. I favor Dialect for all the reasons I have stated but I am open to continue reading and have new material posted to my talk page for my continuing education. Ethnologue still lists Kamrupi as a dialect[4] they choose to label as "Western Assamese" which I know has been discussed to death (the term, not Ethnologue's use of it) and Ethnologue is as close as we come to an "official" list of languages plus the breakdown of data. Therefore, going against their categorization without a new supporting reference could create unnecessary controversy. I mention this only as an example of why changing the name could create problems. It is not my intent to start a conversation about whether Ethnologue is the final arbiter on language. It's more like Wikipedia, an encyclopedic presentation of data but minus the open-sourcing. My point is simply that the published Academic consensus by numbers remains in favor of Dialect, at this time. I understand that this is most likely due to lack of more modern research and/or re-assessment. Thank you again for your kind attention and for the opportunity to contribute. I also thank the editors active on this page for directing me to past discussions and important references.LiPollis (talk) 22:34, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Goswami, Upendranath (1970). A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese. Department of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam. p. 4. Assam from ancient times, was known as Kamarupa till the end of the Koch rule (17th century) and ancient Kamarupa comprised the whole of North Bengal including Cooch-Behar, and the Rangpur and Jalpaiguri districts of Bengal. Its permanent western boundary is said to have been the river Karatoya in North Bengal according to the Kalika Purana and Yoginitantra, both devoted to geographical accounts of ancient Kamarupa. So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang districts. As also put by K.L. Barua "the Kamrupi dialect was originally a variety of eastern Maithili and it was no doubt the spoken Aryan language throughout the kingdom which then included the whole of the Assam Valley and the whole of Northern Bengal with the addition of the Purnea district of Bihar". It is in this Kamrupi language that the early Assamese literature was mainly written. Up to the seventeenth century as the centre of art, literature and culture were confined within western Assam and the poets and the writers hailed from this part, the language of this part also acquired prestige. The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati, the author of a small poem, Prahrada Caritra, who composed his verses under his patron, King Durlabhnarayana of Kamatapur who is said to have ruled in the latter part of the 13th century. Rudra Kandali translated Drone Parva under the patronage of King Tamradhvaja of Rangpur. The most considerable poet of the pre-vaisnavite period is Madhava Kandali, who belonged to the present district of Nowgong and rendered the entire Ramayana into Assamese verse under the patronage of king Mahamanikya, a Kachari King of Jayantapura. The golden age in Assamese literature opened with the reign of Naranarayana, the Koch King. He gathered round him at his court at Cooch-Behar a galaxy of learned man. Sankaradeva real founder of Assamese literature and his favourite disciple Madhavadeva worked under his patronage. The other-best known poets and writers of this vaisnavite period namely Rama Sarasvati, Ananta Kandali, Sridhar Kandali, Sarvabhauma Bhattacharyya, Dvija Kalapachandra and Bhattadeva, the founder of the Assamese prose, all hailed from the present district of Kamarupa. During Naranaryana's reign "the Koch power reached its zenith. His kingdom included practically the whole of Kamarupa of the kings of Brahmapala's dynasty with the exception of the eastern portion known as Saumara which formed the Ahom kingdom. Towards the west the kingdom appears to have extended beyond the Karatoya, for according to Abul Fasal, the author of the Akbarnamah, the western boundary of the Koch kingdom was Tirhut. On the south-west the kingdom included the Rangpur district and part of Mymensingh to the east of the river Brahmaputra which then flowed through that district," The Kamrupi language lost its prestige due to reasons mentioned below and has now become a dialect which has been termed as Kamrupi dialect as spoken in the present district of Kamrup.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Resources for commentators

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I am opening this section for all those editors who are new to this subject. I have observed that in past most uninvolved editors unable to comment on it due to their unfamiliarity with the subject. I have initiated and participated discussions on this subject since 2012, most probably i will not in future on same issues as current ones. I am adding resources on the subject, so that uninvolved editors can take well informed decision in light of their acquired knowledge. I also invite other involved editors to add resources they deemed fit.

Material

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Requested move 28 October 2019

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Kamrupi dialect → Kamrupi dialects – Since the last RM, the article has developed to be very clear that Kamrupi is a group of dialects, not a single dialect, nor a separate language. Longer names like "Kamrupi dialect continuum" would be possible but not necessarily more WP:PRECISE for our readership, and not as WP:CONCISE. "Kamrupi Assamese" would be more WP:NATURAL (and WP:CONSISTENT with American English, Mexican Spanish, etc.), but is ambiguous, since it could esaily refer to Assamese people of Kamrup (and disambiguating it would put us right back in the dialects vs. dialect vs. language argument, just inside parentheses). The current proposal is WP:CONSISTENT with various other articles of this sort, such as Drèents dialects, Hessian dialects, etc. Though some articles with names in this pattern are basically subarticles of major-language main articles, e.g. Bengali dialects and German dialects, there's certainly no requirement that they be of that nature to have such a name, and their content is precise enough that no confusion will result.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:43, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Support: I strongly support this move. Recently the Goalpariya dialect page too moved to Goalpariya dialects ([5]). Chaipau (talk) 01:28, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Ngrams has little to say (insufficient data), and sources seem to support this. Kamrupi Assamese did seem like a natural alternative, but SMcCandlish's argument against it is persuasive, as it just kicks the problem down the field, and ends up failing CONCISE compared to the add-s alternative. Mathglot (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – In contrast to general statements, the statistics (scholar) yields 42 hits for Kamrupi dialect, 14 for Kamrupi language and 3 for Kamrupi dialects (that too not in titular terms). The present name satisfies WP:COMMON NAME criteria and suggested name is coined afresh in Wikipedia itself which has no real life use. The titles of work on the subject are "A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese", "Onomatopoetic and echo-words in Kamrupi", "O. I. A. sibilants in Kāmrupi" etc. We are definitely not working on two different subjects. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:08, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support  – WP:COMMON NAME doesn't seem so relevant here, since the issue is that the topic is a group of dialects, not a single uniform dialect. We do want our article titles to accurately reflect what is covered, even if the means using a name that has less hits on Google Scholar. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 19:57, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Kamrupi dialect -> Kamrupi dialects

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Paine Ellsworth, thanks for closing the discussion. The result outcome based on three favourable votes. I like to draw your attention that we don't have evidences against existence of subject (Kamrupi dialect) and why we can't have article on it. The very first citation on lede i.e. "Kamrupi is defined as a dialect of Assamese in the title of the seminal work—Goswami, Upendranath (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese", google scholar and google books firmly establishes Kamrupi dialect as indiviual subject. I am not opposed to Kamrupi dialects but it can be a secondary article about subdialects based on primary Kamrupi dialect article. Same way as Bengali language – Bengali dialects etc. Kindly rethink, thank you.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 01:23, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To editor Bhaskarbhagawati: thank you very much for your concerns! There were actually four favourable !votes and rationales, because the nomination must also be included. As closer, I don't want to become an expert on languages and dialects. My goal is to evaluate the requested move discussion and to close the discussion based on my evaluation of the reasonings of the participants. Your rationale was indeed a strong reasoning in terms of keeping the status quo; however, the other editors' reasonings were also strong. Hopefully, this article's title has landed at its final resting place. Best to you, Bhaskarbhagawati! P. I. Ellsworth, ed. put'r there 01:39, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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