Talk:Intelligent design: Difference between revisions

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Intelligent design received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

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Welcome to Wikipedia's Intelligent Design article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic.

Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here.

A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents ID in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of ID is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are NPOV: Pseudoscience, NPOV: Undue weight, and NPOV: Giving "equal validity". The contributors to the article have done their best to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the POV fork guidelines.

These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE).

Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON).

Dembski reviews peer review issues in:

[http://www.designinference.com/documents/2005.09.Expert_Report_Dembski.pdf "As part of a monograph series with an academic editorial board (Cambridge Studies in Probability, Induction, and Decision Theory), The Design Inference is the equivalent of a journal article — the reason monographs get published as books is that they are too long to fit in journals."

This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of Intelligent Design. See WP:NOT.

1. This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'; see Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Theory.
2. Although at times heated, the debates contained here are meant to improve the Intelligent Design article. Reasoned, civil discourse is the best means to make an opinion heard. Rude behavior not only distracts from the subject(s) at hand, but tends to make people deride or ignore what was said.
3. Please use edit summaries.

1. Before commenting on any part of the article, please make sure it is not clearly a direct quote. Quotes are indicated by quotation marks and a footnote. We cannot, no matter how much the language or the meaning of the quote might rile someone, change the quote.

Could someone explain to me the purpose of this revert of a copyedit I worked hard on 10 days ago? -Silence 07:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, Lets go step by step.

1. You removed wikilinks to universe and life. No defense there on my part I guess it is a matter of taste. Looking at it again there are plenty of wikilinks so deleting irrelevant wikilinks does no harm. My fault.
2. you replaced [Argument from design|intelligent cause] by [intelligent designer|intelligent cause] which in my opinion is not a good change. Intelligent cause here refers to the more broad nature of the intelligent cause such as the argument from design rather than the especific agent that does it.
3. You added evolution. IDers claim that ID is an alternative to evolution because they define evolution to include origin of life when in reality it does not. By using correct definition of evolution it is clear that ID really only challenges other origin of life theories.
4. Why remove "not as a valid scientific theory but " which is more descriptive?
5. experiment link. My fault you are right there.
6. Establishment Clause of the First Amendment link. I argue here that some people would like to follow the link to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment while other will like to go directly to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution or for that matter to both. For example I am Spanish and my knowledge of the US Constitution is not that good. So I get a better undertanding of the issue by reading both articles and I guess other users will feel the same.
7. Intelligent design's to The. Small change that to me looks more encyclopedic.
8. "signs of intelligence" is redundant as a paragraph above already uses the term. So it is better to refer to "sign" alone IMHO.
9. the rest of the changes wich I believe are a couple of corrections in spelling and wikilinks where reverted due to unattentiveness for my part. Sorry.

I hope this explains my revert.--LexCorp 12:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. Yes, links to such broad articles are not useful here, at least in the very beginning of the article. It makes the first sentence too link-crowded, thus attracting the eye's attention away from genuinely vital links on specifically relevant topics.
2. You are incorrect in assuming that [[argument from design|intelligent cause]] is preferable to [[intelligent designer|intelligent cause]] for two reasons. First, most obviously, argument from design is just a redirect to teleological argument, and there's no reason to link to a redirect here rather than the article itself. Second, most importantly, it is misleading to link to a tangentially-related subject matter when clearly what's actually being discussed in the sentence in question is not the "argument from design", but the intelligence that caused the design: the intelligent cause/intelligent designer. Remember that one of the most important principles in wikilinking is the "principle of least surprise": we should always avoid linking to an article that will confuse or surprise users who click on the sentence in question, and without a doubt that applies to a link to teleological argument from the phrase "intelligent cause", since anyone clicking a link would expect information about the cause itself (and the article for that is at intelligent designer), not about a group of arguments that are closely related to intelligent design in general.
3. That is your personal belief. I agree with it, but treating it as fact is inappropriate when 100% of all intelligent designers treat their belief system as a dispute over evolution, not over the origin of life. Misrepresenting what they themselves focus on doing (which is challenging evolution, even if they're going about it the wrong way by focusing on the related, but distinct, topic of the origin of life) is not remotely useful for helping people understand what the intelligent design movement actually beliefs and focuses on.
4. Please reread the entire lead paragraph, both your version and mine. I spent over and hour reading over both to carefully check for errors and redundancies in the overall flow of the paragraph. You apparently haven't noticed that the word "theory" is used five times in the intro in your version, and linked to twice—and, even worse, the word "scientific" is used twelve times in the intro alone, including in several places where it's not necessary, and twice in the sentence in question ("scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory")—that's just plain bad prose, and there's no other way of putting it. The reason that I removed that particular line is simply because it was 100% unnecessary: it was fluff, it didn't clarify anything that was unclear and just added unnecessarily wasted time and energy between the beginning and end of the sentence in question. Within that paragraph, we had already made the point that "An overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design as pseudoscience"; to go on about scientific theories, which had already been touched on in the first paragraph, would be entirely redundant.
5. Yep. I checked every single link in the lead to ensure that it went to a real article (rather than a redirect), and replaced it with one where it didn't. Time-consuming, but worth it.
6. I don't really care. Link to those articles however you prefer. I was simply linking to a more accurate title for the specific article in question (Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, not just Establishment Clause); it doesn't make a significant difference.
7. I'm afraid that you are 100%, absolutely incorrect here. Please reread the sentences in question. "The" doesn't make the statement "more encyclopedic" here, it only makes it more ambiguous. It is also poor grammar, based on the context (start of a pargraph and new topic, and no in-sentence clues as to what "The" refers to, making it even worse than if you'd just used "Their").
8. I'm fine with that. Merely trying to avoid ambiguity. But in this case, unlike the previous one, the referent is made clear, and there is a valid reason not to repeat the word (whereas there is no reason not to repeat "intelligent design" in the aforementioned paragraph).
9. So do I have to redo them all? -Silence 12:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
   1. I'd suggest, on the topic of origin of life, that a NPOV rewrite could resolve this. Ie., we can note that the official definition of what the theory of evolution is does not include an origin theory, and we can also note that however many ID proponents seem to feel evolution does speak to the question of origins. Ie., as in all POV disputes, we simply note what each side says/believes. Then the readers can realize for themselves that many IDer's don't even know exactly what they're discussing, without our having to point it out, which would be crossing the line. Kasreyn 02:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree that that would be very useful information to have, and have well-referenced, in the article. However, I still think that for the lead, which should be as short and concise as possible, simply stating "evolution and the origin of life" is completely sufficient and satisfactory and non-POVed in its vagueness, and more informative and concise than the alternatives. -Silence 11:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot engage in discussions now due to real life issues. So feel free to make any changes.--LexCorp 11:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following material listed in "Peer Review" appears to cover research. Propose moving this to after "Peer review" with its own new subheading "Research Program" DLH 01:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The debate over whether intelligent design produces new research, as any scientific field must, and has legitimately attempted to publish this research, is extremely heated. Both critics and advocates point to numerous examples to make their case. For instance, the Templeton Foundation, a former funder of the Discovery Institute and a major supporter of projects seeking to reconcile science and religion, says that they asked intelligent design proponents to submit proposals for actual research, but none were ever submitted. Charles L. Harper Jr., foundation vice president, said that "From the point of view of rigor and intellectual seriousness, the intelligent design people don't come out very well in our world of scientific review."[71] At the Kitzmiller trial the judge found that intelligent design features no scientific research or testing.

We hear an awful lot about peer review and the so called conspiracy to keep ID out of legitimate science journals. What articles have Dembski, Behe, et al submitted to legitimate, peer reviewed science journals that have been rejected? Has Dembski/et al ever said "I submitted X to J only to have it rejected? I know Dembski has fgone on record saying he has no desire to submit anything for peer review and I know Behe said under oath that doing any actual testing of his own theories would not be fruitful, so he has never induleged in any actual testing of ID theory. Have the IDists EVER done any testing or made any attempt to submit their ID related works to a legitimate, peer reviewed science journal? Mr Christopher 17:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How could one test for the supernatural? •Jim62sch• 17:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Simple answer: no scientist would. See methodological naturalism. Science explicitly denies the possibility of supernatural causes for natural phenomena. If a person advocates a theory involving supernatural forces, fine, good for them. But it is by definition not scientific. Kasreyn 22:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Peer review is what is being discussed; research, such as it is, is what gets reviewed in peer review. FeloniousMonk 01:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Restored two major links to ID Perspectives deleted by ScienceApologist alleging spam.

• Research Intelligent Design Wiki
• ID The Future

Research Intelligent Design is a Wiki systematically linking to ID materials. ID The Future is a web site/blog for major proponents of ID. DLH 11:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Assume good faith "To assume good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. As we allow anyone to edit, it follows that we assume that most people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it. . . . So, when you can reasonably assume that something is a well-intentioned error, correct it without just reverting it or labeling it as vandalism. When you disagree with someone, remember that they probably believe that they are helping the project."

This Wikipedia site allows very little material by ID proponents. The link to Research Intelligent Design provided to direct users to a wiki with a mission to give reference material on Intelligent Design. This is an effort to give some semblance of NPOV to this page.DLH 16:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ScienceApologist deleted links alleging spam without discussion. This appears to violate Wiki Policy of "Assume Good Faith". I have provided further discussion deleting my previous description of ScienceApologist.DLH 16:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The major contributors for ID The Future are Michael Behe, William Dembski, Guillermo Gonzalez, Cornelius Hunter, Steve Meyer, Paul Nelson, Jay Richards, Jonathan Wells, and Jonathan Witt. That appears to be as stellar a list of major ID proponents as will be found anywhere. These clearly represent the minority view on ID. DLH 16:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article has 91 footnotes. Any statements made by these proponents which are germaine are cited in the footnotes section. The ID position is a minority position; adding spamlinks in some misguided effort to provide "balance" is actually undue weight towards a vansihly small minority position. You cite AGF yet all SA did was state in his summary why the additions were being reverted. Your accusation of vandalism is a different, and far more serious, matter. Step back and consider your actions; this is not the pot calling the kettle black but rather the pot calling the shiny new saucepan black. KillerChihuahua^?!? 16:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had already withdrawn my vandalism accusation. ScienceApologist claims it is "spam" without justification or discussion. You also reverted my edits without discussion. See Wiki Policy: "Reverting a good-faith edit may send the message that "I think your edit was no better than vandalism and doesn't deserve even the courtesy of an explanatory edit summary." It is a slap in the face to a good-faith editor. If you use the rollback feature for anything other than vandalism or for reverting yourself, be sure to leave an explanation on the article talk page, or on the talk page of the user whose edit(s) you reverted." Twelve reverts in a row suggest that no allowance at all is being given that I am attempting a "good-faith edit".

DLH 17:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree completely with KC. Undue weight is very clear on this. We no more need a "balance" of pro-ID links here than we need a "balance" of pro-Flat Earth links at Flat Earth. It would be a different story, IMO, at the article on Creationism, because Creationism acknowledges that it is a religious belief. Intelligent Design chooses to cast itself as science instead. What I keep trying to point out to DLH is that, by getting in the ring with science, it is therefore both valid and appropriate that ID be criticized from a scientific viewpoint. And, not surprisingly, the (vast) majority scientific viewpoint is that ID is a crock. Kasreyn 17:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This page is supposedly to explain the minority position of "Intelligent Design." Yet it already lists 13 "Non-ID" (effectively anti-ID) to 6 ID links. Wiki policy is to clearly present BOTH the minority and majority positions. Considering the strong anti ID tone of this article, it is important to provide ID links where users can find complementary information and discussion. Just because you support the majority position does not justify reverting minority position links.DLH 18:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Asked for page protection for this section to stop this edit war. Three reverts already today.DLH 18:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the beef?

(Camera pans to host at center stage: Announcer, in exuberant voice: "It’s time to playyyy: 'What's my POV'", "Brought to you by the makers of Gene gun")

(Curtain opens: "And, behind Door Number One... "

([1]) ([2]) ([3]) ([4]) ([5]).

It has been this way from the very first edit, hasn't it? This quest to impose a particular POV on these related subjects of the creation-evolution debate is the cause of these reverts. The three-revert rule (WP:3RR) applies only to sole editors, not multiple editors seeking to defend amply debated and well-considered consensus. .... Kenosis 18:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There appear to be de facto coordinated effort to impose an anti-ID "majority" viewpoint and using multiple persons to get around the 3revert rule. I have had 14 reverts in a row. That does not appear to be allowing for ANY "good faith effort."DLH 19:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How can an effort be de facto coordinated? If it's consciously coordinated, then it's coordinated. If it's not consciously coordinated, how is it coordinated at all? I would suggest that to find your error you need look no farther than the quote marks you placed around the word majority. ID is a scientific issue, and there is a clear scientific majority against it. Kasreyn 19:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the word DLH might hae been looking for was "consensus". As a side note, I find it rather humourous that a project that does not allow "weasel words" has such a wiggly and subjective policy as AGF, which is prone to abuse and at a certain level, primarily that of its implementation and invocation, is very much at odds with other policies. An editor makes a highly POV or inaccurate edit (usually in violation of WP:V, WP:NPOV or other policies), then when it is reverted cries "good faith, good faith, good faith!" without ever once considering the nature of the reverted edt or the simple fact that the editor doing the reverting was acting in good faith.

Also, I think DLH misses the the mark regarding the presentation of what is clearly a minority viewpoint, and suggest that he or she read Undue weight. •Jim62sch• 17:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with DLH that those two links, particularly ID the Future, are significant and should be included. The idea that "Any statements made by these proponents which are germaine are cited in the footnotes section" seemed pretty far off the mark. Obviously, there is much more to the topic of ID than is included in this article. The point of a Wikipedia article is to distill the most important parts into a coherent, balanced story. The point of the external links is to allow readers to get further details, often from non-neutral and/or less notable points of view that don't quite make the article. While many of the links that people try to add are linkspam, I think these links are appropriate.--ragesoss 18:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I have no problem with the inclusion of these should a consensus develop on it. In fact, though, one of these is linkspam to a blog (ID The Future) and should be excluded because it's a blog. The other is a rather interesting and increasingly well developed POV link (Joseph C. Campana's ID Wiki at Research Intelligent Design Wiki). If it's the consensus that this second link should be included, I'll back it – either way is fine by me. ... Kenosis 20:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see Wiki pages on how to make cites, and not to have Blogs on Wiki. HOwever, I find no discussion about whether or not to link to major blogs. Anyone else have any directions to such policy?DLH 00:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Under External Links I found the following:

Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard. I believe the following two apply and that [ID the Future] fulfills these two well.

1. What the article is about.
2. Website is of particularly high standard.

What other comments?DLH 00:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not about the blog itself, nor does the blog meet the "Website is of particularly high standard" criterion. Campana's piece is something I need to think about before offering an opinion - at this point I'm neither in opposition to or supportive of its inclusion. •Jim62sch• 17:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A pro-ID blog run by Discovery Institute fellows will be notable enough to merit mention here, being that ID and the conflict around is largely a product of the Institute, so ID Future is fine to include. But ResearchID.org, a privately-run pro-ID wiki, is largely the product of one individual, Joseph Campanga, a former Wikipedia editor (JosephCCampana (talk · contribs)). ResearchID.org contains his summarizations or interpretations of leading ID proponents arguments. It's not a prominent player on the ID stage, and so does not merit mention in the article; there are much more prominent and influentional websites that come before it. FeloniousMonk 02:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:CloseEncounters seems to be determined to remove Discovery Institute, Center for Science and Culture and refer it to Discovery Institute (Hub of the intelligent design movement): they're both the DI, but wearing different hats on different home pages. Other than alerting readers to CSC being DI, was there a reason for the two links? ..dave souza, talk 18:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To show the duplicitous nature of DI and ID. •Jim62sch• 18:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it appears CE and DLH are interested only in promoting ID, not contributing positively to the greater wikipedia project, so I'd expect that. FeloniousMonk 01:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the Wikipedia community expects: 5 pillars policy including --- Assume good faith from others. Be open, welcoming, and inclusive. Strive for accuracy, verifiability, and a neutral point of view. --- I am trying to help towards that. Thanks for the welcome.DLH 01:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You've promoted the ID POV to the exclusion of all others since you've arrived, so I shouldn't be surprised. Assume good faith is not a suicide pact. FeloniousMonk 02:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just trying to provide some NPOV balance. From the text and discussions there seem to be plenty of "Non-ID" advocates around. There is an ancient proverb: The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him. Proverbs 18:17 Someone has to provide some peer review here to keep the presentation honest:)DLH 02:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The discovery.org links were duplicate links; I consolidated the two. FeloniousMonk is deleting a legitimate link to a newly launched site, www.ReasearchID.org, the launch of which was announced at www.evolutionnews.org on June 24th. The site is "Currently collaborating on about 67 research applications of intelligent design." This is an exceptional new resource, and it is completely wrong to censor it from readers interested in the development of ID; there is no good reason for FeloniousMonk's deletion. Secondly, FeloniousMonk deleted Michael Behe's well-written and published response to the Kitzmiller decision while permitting a non-scientist's response (Kitzmiller: An Intelligent Ruling On Intelligent Design), not to mention a link to the anti-ID opinion of Judge Jones. In other words, FeloniousMonk allows ID opponents to respond to the ruling, but does not allow ID supporters to respond to the ruling. This is a blatant double standard that should not be tolerated on Wikipedia, which purports to strive for neutral treatment.

--CloseEncounters 02:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you're interested in genuinely improving the article and not promoting a particular viewpoint you'd be fixing the CSC link instead of deleting it.

ID Future is a notable and prominent site and should be included. But as I said above, ResearchID.org is a private pro-ID wiki run by one individual, Joseph Campanga, a former Wikipedia editor (JosephCCampana (talk · contribs)). It only contains his summarizations or interpretations of leading ID proponents arguments. It's not notable enough to merit mention here.

You really need to stop edit warring here, you've already violated 3RR 12 times in the last 24 hours and will be blocked if you continue. FeloniousMonk 02:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is a poor categorization from a superficial look at the site. ResearchIntelligentDesign.org is a Wiki for the ID community to collect ID materials and links (without being continually deleted by the likes of FelloniusMonk). This edit war interaction shows all the more why it is an important link to include.DLH 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's factual. The burden of proof is on you to prove it's not. FeloniousMonk 03:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk Please review the very high frequency of your reverts and deletes. If the shoe fits wear it. DLH 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I abide by WP:3RR and don't generally make a habit of reverting the same article 12 times in one day as does CE. FeloniousMonk 03:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CloseEncounters - Please create a section if needed, and add your discussion on reasons for changes. Most of the present 'editors' here appear to delete all changees made directly without extensive discussion etc. etc. DLH 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FM, a question for you arising from more than mere curiosity: what type of "proof" would be required to include the link to ResearchID.org on the 'Intelligent Design' Wikipedia article? -- Joseph C. Campana 19:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dembski and Behe as active editors of ResearchID.org. Barring that, Dembski and Behe or other leading ID proponents repeatedly citing ResearchID.org as source. Failing there, significant independant media coverage of ResearchID.org may qualify it, but it would have to be some signifcant and extensive coverage.

Right now there are 67 registered users at ResearchID.org. Of those, fewer than ten are the most active contributors, with the wiki's founder, you being the most active by far [6]. The work of one individual and his 10 or so occasional helpers does not make ResearchID.org a significant or notable source on ID in and of itself. FeloniousMonk 20:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FM, thank you for your response. I think these criteria are fair and it is true that we do not meet any of them yet. I hope to fulfill one, if not all of them, at a future date. At some point, I may return to inquire on your definitions of "active editors," "repeatedly cited," and "significant or notable." Again, I appreciate your very prompt response. Regards, Joseph C. Campana.

Added See also link to Universal probability bound that provides a mathematical basis for addressing the Improbable versus impossible events issues and is a core ID argument.DLH 02:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't it make more sense to have the more specifically relevant template in a more prominent position than the more generally relevant template? I switched the placement of the two templates only because the Intelligent Design series of articles, for obvious reasons, is more relevant to our Intelligent design article than the Creationism series of articles: both series are relevant, but the one specifically named after this page is the one we should use at the top of the article. For the exact same reason, the top of the Jesus article uses the template for the "Jesus" series of articles, and the template for the "Christianity" series of articles is lower-down on the page. -Silence 02:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from the Creationism template being on top for early two years now, I'd think that subcategories always follow their parent categories, hence: Creationism (category) --> intelligent design (type). FeloniousMonk 02:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a category, this is a template. Templates do not go, on an article page, from "top-level hierarchy" to "bottom-level hierarchy" as one scrolls from the top to the bottom of an article: that would be horrendously inefficient and poorly-designed. People who had just arrived at the "Botany" article, for example, would have to wade through first a "Science" template, then a "Biology" one, then finally get to the template that's actually relevant to the article, the "Botany" listing! (Even though, obviously, a "Botany" template or an image is what should adorn the top of the article, since that's the most immediately relevant and significant topic.)

Moreover, although I didn't want to have to get into this issue, Intelligent Design advocates dispute whether ID is a form of Creationism or not; the only motivation for keeping the template at the top of the page (when it would work just as well slightly lower in the article) is to go out of our way to snub them, in this case at the expense of encyclopedic value. Moreover, the intro to "intelligent design" nowhere mentions "creationism". Neither does the "Intelligent design in summary" section. Indeed, the word creationism is only mentioned six times in the entire article text! And "we should keep it this way because it's always been this way" is a terribly weak argument; nothing on Wikipedia would ever improve if we truly cared more about tradition than utility to the reader.

I'm not arguing for the removal of the creationism template, merely for the placement of an even more blatantly relevant template (the ID one) in the most prominent position in the article, so that users who come here looking for intelligent design articles will be immediately given the most benefit possible—if someone was looking specifically for a listing of creationism topics, they would have searched for "creationism", of course. -Silence 03:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the difference between templates and categories on Wikipedia; I meant category in the general sense.

Well, I'm glad to see you're not arguing for the removal of the creationism template, since ID is by definition and necessity a type of creationism, something that is apparent when the article is read. If it needs to be better spelled out it can easily be added, there's no shortage of supporting cites available for that addition.

If you're going to stand on argument of "utility" or "benefit" for the placement of the Creationism of ID templates, favoring ID over Creationism strikes me as arbitrary since most ID enthusiasts coming to this article are creationists by definition and necessity again. FeloniousMonk 03:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Favoring ID over Creationism" in general would be arbitrary—there's no reason to place the ID template above the creationism one in ID/creationism articles that are primarily creationism-related. But favoring ID over creationism in the ID article isn't arbitrary, it's just common sense. Not putting the ID template on the top of the article just because ID is a type of creationism (which, again, IDers themselves ardently dispute, though I don't want to get into that issue) would be like not putting the Scientology-articles template at the top of the Scientology article and instead putting a general "religion" template there because Scientology is a religion.

How broad a template is is largely irrelevant in a discussion of template placement: what matters is how directly relevant it is to the article in question (and therefore how useful it will be to people just coming to the article), and the Intelligent Design template is clearly, inherently 100% relevant to the Intelligent design article, which makes it a better choice for the top of the article even if creationism is 99% relevant to the article (and it's probably closer to 75%, since there are noteworthy differences between the two movements: creationism is more explicitly religious, ID is more pseudoscientific). Also, the intelligent design article is written for the general public, not for "ID enthusiasts" (by which you seem to mean "ID believers"), so your above argument is a red herring. -Silence 06:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In an attempt to compromise, I've restored the ID template to the top of the page, but added a link to creationism at the very top of that template ({{Intelligent Design}}). If the view that ID is a type of creationism is as uncontroversial as you claim it is, then there should be no problem whatsoever with linking to creationism in the ID template. And now we get to actually start the ID article with links to ID-related topics! Much better, ne? -Silence 09:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence, regarding your revert: no consensus was reached here. FM merely agreed that the ID template might be of value in the article. It may be, but not at the top. Additionally, when responding, let's try not to write pseudo-doctoral theses, shall we.

As for your purported compromise -- it's no compromise. Since you are attempting to change what we have already agreed upon here, I'm reverting once again. Try to gain consensus for your change before you make further changes.

In addition, the wholesale changes you made to other sections of the article are unsupported. •Jim62sch• 10:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with keeping the creationsm template first and the ID template second. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 14:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find it rather curious that three different people have endorsed a certain template placement without yet having actually explained their basis or justification in any way, shape, or form. Surely there is some reason to keep the status quo, hence your support for it? KimvdLinde and Jim62sch have both ignored the discussion entirely in favor of blind-support voting (in Jim62sch's case, accompanied by scornful and insulting bad-faith-assuming), and FeloniousMonk's explanations have been some of the flimsiest I've ever seen in my life, amounting to the fallacious "it's good because it's been there a while" and the patently false "broader, vaguely-relevant things must go higher than more specifically relevant things".

As a side-point, I've only been visiting this article for a short while, but purely from my experiences on this Talk page so far (which I expect, and hope, is quite inaccurate!), it's, ironically (and despite having a similar appreciation for science and references), almost exactly the opposite of the Talk:Evolution page: xenophobic (new people editing = changes must be bad!), ultraconservative (whatever's already in the article now must stay there forever!), hostile, unhelpful, unreasonable, dismissive, and completely uninterested in relevant discussion or the open exchange of ideas. It makes me sad. I hope this first impression is a false one, and the environment here is friendlier and more open than it's initially appeared. :/ Surely a little controversy isn't enough to burn away all the Wikilove. -Silence 14:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I follow the discussions at this page, but do not feel the need to add comments to every discussion. I think that an article should start with the general templates first before going into the more specific templates, just my opinion. As for your arguments, ID is not even pseudoscientific, and is just as religious as creationism. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 14:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did what? "scornful and insulting bad-faith-assuming" -- it was probably more condescending than insulting. In any case, I note that you are indeed new to this page -- did you bother to read all the archives or just the FAC part? Other than the clever use of a template refering to the watchmaker analogy as the lead template, you've really not brought anything new to the page.•Jim62sch• 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's compromise: it was insultingly condescending. OK? :) Good job keeping it up, too. Whee. -Silence 17:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So the Jesus article should start with a Religion template (and a History template?), then further down the page provide a Christianity template, then finally a Jesus template? Aren't we forgetting about practicality and accessibility in the midst of this arbitrary "most general goes at the top" idea?

Anyway, thanks for the reply to my comment. To respond: ID is certainly pseudoscientific, as it is "a body of alleged knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that is portrayed as scientific but diverges substantially from the required standards for scientific work or is unsupported by sufficient scientific research"; and I did not state that ID is nonreligious: I stated that ID, unlike creationism, is not explicitly religious (though it doesn't always hide it well). -Silence 15:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is the intelligent design article, not the Jesus article -- let's try to keep that in mind. •Jim62sch• 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Jesus article is a completely random example. I also used a Botany example earlier. Objecting to my valid analogy on the grounds that the two articles are not exactly alike is missing the point of what an "analogy" is: it points out a comparable quality between two unlike things in order to illustrate a point. If the two things were alike, it wouldn't be an analogy, now would it? :/ You're ignoring the meat of the argument, in favor of the plate. Plates are unnutricious, sir. -Silence 17:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it were pseudoscience, there would not have been a victory in the Dover case based on the first amendment, because that amendment does not prohibite bad science. As for the templates, I make up my mind based on accesability, not how other articles do it, and could come to different conclusions for differetn articles, which is not a problem. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 15:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I think I see where the misunderstanding is. Pseudoscience means "fake science", not "bad science", KimvdLinde. The Greek prefix pseudo- means "false, counterfeit, fake". Pseudoscience isn't a type of science, it's nonscience masquerading as science. As for the templates, I, too, make up my mind based on accessiblity, not on how other articles do it, and would come to different conclusions for different articles—which is the main reason I came to the conclusion for this article that the template for the article itself (this article is still named "Intelligent design", right?) is more immediately relevant than a template for anything else. -Silence 15:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

reduce indent Dollars to donuts, Kim knows what pseudoscience is. In any case, you missed Kim's point: the US Courts don't rule that the Establishment Clause has been violated absent a tie to religion, hence, ID is creationism (religion) cast anew -- that's it's pseudoscience (and in Dembski's case, pseudo-math) is just one more problem it has. •Jim62sch• 17:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how anything you said implies that I missed Kim's point. I'd expect Kim to know what pseudoscience is, too, but the context and contents of the above statement make it sound like Kim's saying that "ID isn't pseudoscience because a court said it isn't science", which seems rather backwards. On the other hand, it's quite obvious (even painfully obvious?) that both you and Kim have completely missed my point, as demonstrated by the fact that you argued against my "creationism is more explicitly religious, ID is more pseudoscientific" statement by, essentially, agreeing with it. You pointed out examples of how ID is implicitly religious and pseudoscientific, which is exactly what I was saying: non-ID creationism is more explicit in its religiosity, and usually makes significantly less effort to try and give the false impression of being scientific, secular, etc. -Silence 17:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The current lead section is very well-referenced, decently neutral, and accurate. A good job overall. However, in my opinion, it is not quite as balanced or explanatory as it could, and should, be. a significant problem is that it spends too little time actually presenting the basic ideas behind the concept of "intelligent design": only a sentence or two actually discuss the concept, and then two paragraphs are spent on its repurcussions and criticism—before most people will probably really understand what IDers advocate.

Obviously we shouldn't go into too much detail in the lead (especially since we have an "overview" section just below for explaining a lot of that), but a little expansion of the first paragraph wouldn't hurt. (And, if the first paragraph was expanded by about 50%, it would give us a good reason to merge the second two paragraphs into one, which I think is merited by their shortness and related scope.) I noticed, reading over this article's last FAC, that a large portion of the "oppose" votes were concerned that the article spent too much time on negative criticism and commentary, relative to time spent on actually describing the concept of "intelligent design" itself. It's no wonder that they would think that, when two-thirds of our lead section discusses criticism of and opposition to the movement, not the actual beliefs or activities or what-have-you of the IDers themselves! I have no problem with us including a significant amount of ID-criticism in the lead, since that is a major, and noteworthy, aspect of the movement (if not of the belief system itself...), but if we can chance that 1/3 ratio to 1/2 (or at least 2/5), it should allay a significant amount of the potential "too much negative commentary, not enough direct description" criticism.

I have no strong opinions on what, specifically, we should add to the first paragraph, as long as it is broad, well-referenced, and informative enough, but the best suggestions I can think of include adding a mentioning of the intelligent design movement, or possibly of some closely-related topics (such as the teleological argument or creationism). -Silence 09:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The intro is fine as it stands; accurate, balanced and well-supported.

The current balance struck in the article represents a careful effort to adhere to the Undue Weight clause of the NPOV policy which states: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views..." ID proponents say ID a scientific theory. The scientific community says no it's not. Since ID proponents are an extreme minority within the scientific community, something like less than 1%, the article is rather generous in the amount of weight it grants ID. Dictating a percentage of the article dedicated to criticism for "balance" as you propose is arbitrary; any accurate, complete and NPOV article will cover all significant viewpoints in whatever amount their significance demands.

You're mistaken in relying on the comments in the failed FAC. As a review of the FAC reveals, this article's FAC was scuttled by a few known ideologues and a good number of single-purpose accounts raising bad faith objections; knowingly tendentious and specious viewpoints. This will always be the case with this article. As long as those promoting the ID strategy of spinning facts edit Wikipedia, no genuinely neutral treatment of the topic will be accepted as balanced or neutral by ID advocates here. Experience by long term contributors has shown that those who object will never be satisfied by anything other than a perfectly pro-ID article. Our aim is for a genuinely accurate and balanced article, and the wide recognition outside of Wikipedia as such is proof enough the current article does that well. Just because ideological ax-grinders can scuttle its Featured Article status is no justification for sacrificing what we've achieved already.

Please seek and abide by consensus and not edit war over your proposed changes. FeloniousMonk 16:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please request protection on this article to stop these various unconsensused mass edits? ... Kenosis 16:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kenosis, my actual changes to the article are really just a large-scale copyedit, not a content change. I wasn't aware that prior consensus was required to even attempt to fix commas and clarify wordings. Is there a committee I have to go through to correct typos and fix wikilinks? :)

I'm also confused as to why you placed this request in this specific section. Nothing I wrote above has anything to do with any of the changes I made to the article; my proposal to slightly increase the amount of actual information about ID in the intro is entirely theoretical and long-term. Then again, I'm also confused as to why you didn't just ask me yourself, or point out some problem in any of my edits, if you wanted to discuss my recent copyedit... I thought protection was the last resort, not the first one? Odd. -Silence 16:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence, as you can readily see by looking through recent edits, there have within the last few days been numerous controversial and repeated POV edits (on both "sides" of the debate really). Sorry to see these all get tangled up together in a morass. No doubt your proposals will get properly parsed and sorted out, but given that there are many editors who've demonstrated continuing interest in this article it appears that it will take a bit of time. It would be much more feasible for the various editors to parse if each edit were implemented point-by-point with an edit summary attached to each. ... Kenosis 16:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, please read what I actually wrote above. You sound like you are responding to my suggestions on autopilot, blindly assuming that I am advocating that we remove any of the criticism from the intro (which I am explicitly not) and completely ignoring all of my actual suggestions, which are thought-out, 100% consistent with NPOV policy, and quite important for this article's future.

Secondly, please actually look at the edits I made to the article before you make wild assumptions and accusations regarding their nature. I have yet to make a single real content-related change to this article; my edits have been purely stylistic, grammatical, etc. consisting almost entirely of copyedits. My actual edits to this article have exactly nothing to do with my proposed changes above; I would not make such dramatic changes to an article like this without first heavily discussing the matter and achieving consensus (hence my making this thread). My changes to the article are almost without exception both obvious and minor.

Thirdly, please drop the patronizing attitude. I've read the NPOV policy page dozens of times before, and not a single thing I said above is even remotely close to contradicting any aspect of Wikipedia policy. I did not "rely" on any of the criticisms from the FAC (at least some of which were indeed valid), I simply referenced them. And my argument for making the intro a more balanced mix of description of the ID belief and movement, and criticism and reactions thereto, was based on utility to the reader (because providing a little more information on the beliefs/movement itself in the lead is worthwhile) and bringing the article more closely in line with NPOV (because NPOV says not to give undue weight to minority views in articles comparing different views on an issue, not to neglect adequately describing the actual topic of an article when that topic is heavily criticized), not on arbitrary percentages—I apologize if I gave that impression with the middle segment of my post. Thank you for your time. -Silence 16:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When was the FAC? October 2005. This version was the FA candidate [7]. Since then the article has already been significantly rewritten incorporating what few good faith and relevant comments were made, so your attempt now is too late, overtaken by events. And considering the edits so far from you, I'm not convinced that you've a firm grasp on how undue weight applies to this topic and topic itself. You'd have gotten a lot further here had you used accurate edit summaries and sought consensus first. FeloniousMonk 16:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, don't assume I'm an idiot: I already realize that any high-traffic article is going to have been rewritten in the last 9 months. :P I did not base any of my comments on the FAC; I made my suggestion independently, then as an after-the-fact addition made note of the main issue brought up on the FAC. I wouldn't even have referenced the FAC if I hadn't thought that adding the tantalizing possibility of FAhood might impel others to more seriously consider my recommendation, giving an impetus not to assume that the status quo is wholely inerrant; if I'd known what scorn you apparently have for the FA voters, I would have realized it was counterproductive and not bothered. Live and learn..

Your comments are ridiculous, and again imply that you are profoundly unfamiliar not only with the edits I've made to this article, but also, oddly, with the post I made only a few inches above when I started this section. o_O; Nothing I said in my post is "too late"; you fixate on the fact that I made an offhand mentioning of a months-old FAC, completely ignoring the actual contents of my recommendation, which is really a useful "outsider's perspective" (the most important perspective for an encyclopedia!) from someone first reading the intro paragraphs: a typical outsider will correctly recognizing that, as I mentioned, the intro is "well-referenced, decently neutral, and accurate", but will find it unbalanced in that it spends too little time on actually explaining the belief system (and movement thereof) before it jumps into the critique. An outsider will not know or care that the current lead is a compromise that has been months in the making, requiring hard work and dedication from a variety of talented editors: what matters to readers is the result, not the process, and writing off this article's lead section's deficiency of balance just because the editors have Faith in it is counterproductive.

"And considering the edits so far from you, I'm not convinced that you've a firm grasp on how undue weight applies to this topic and topic itself." - This is a big accusation. Can you back it up with any substance? What about my edits has caused you to think that I don't know "how undue weight applies to this topic"? Have you even read my edits? It increasingly doesn't sound like you have, you merely assume that they must be poorly-balanced because you reverted them. :P

"You'd have gotten a lot further here had you used accurate edit summaries" - Every single edit I made had a 100% accurate edit summary, and I took pains (by spacing out my edits over several changes) to ensure that any user could very easily see every single individual change I made simply by using the "compare" tool. Again, your accusation is utterly baseless.

"and sought consensus first." - Routine (albeit thorough and expansive) copyedits do not require prior consensus. I would have gladly discussed any aspect of any of my edits which anyone objected to; instead, I was met only with blind mass-reverts and insinuated personal attacks. I'm still waiting to actually hear anyone say what it is about any of my edits that is so objectionable. Is correct comma usage a violation of NPOV? Is avoiding unnecessarily linking to redirects controversial? Is wording sentences in a clear and concise manner a sneaky, bad-faith maneuver? Amazing. -Silence 16:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Silence, I am unable to review all the points being here at the moment. But I think you should know this. Some time ago (perhaps FeloniousMonk, ScienceApologist, or another long-term editor can give us a link) an agreement was made among many editors including those with pro, con and neutral views on the subject matter of ID. The agreement was, in essence, that the intro would consist of three brief paragraphs. The first would capsulate ID and who the proponents are; the second would summarize the position of the scientific community, and the third would summarize the current legal status of ID. If I am inaccurate in how I've represented this, could someone please correct it, or confirm it, perhaps provide a link to that archived discussion? ... Kenosis 20:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here at the evolution conference, there was a whole day symposium on the Dover case, and I asked one of the expert witnesses of the case about notable proponents not affiliated with the disco institute, and the answer by him was negative. There are not-affiliated proponents, but they have far less visibilty than the affiliated proponents. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 14:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]