Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles

First of all, I would like to apologize for using machine translation as I am not good at English.

This is an issue that has been discussed many times before, and I apologize for repeating it. However, I believe it is something that needs to be considered with an eye to the future, so I would like to propose it again.

This is the current rule. I don't mind using them as is, but problems are sure to arise in a few more years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Japan-related_articles#Personal_names

This is where the problem started. The policy was issued by the Japanese government's Agency for Cultural Affairs in accordance with the recommendations of the Japanese Language Council, an organization that defines how to write the Japanese language.

https://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/sisaku/joho/joho/kakuki/22/tosin04/17.html

It is preferable that Japanese names be written in the romanized order of "family name - given name" (for example, Yamada Haruo). In addition, to prevent misunderstandings based on traditional customs, "surname - first name" can be changed by using methods such as capitalizing the surname (YAMADA Haruo) or placing a comma between the surname and first name (Yamada, Haruo). It may also be possible to show the structure.
In the future, I hope that the above intentions will be put to good use when Japanese people's names are written in Roman letters in government offices and news organizations, as well as in the teaching of English and other subjects in school education.
したがって，日本人の姓名については，ローマ字表記においても「姓－名」の順（例えばYamada Haruo）とすることが望ましい。なお，従来の慣習に基づく誤解を防くために，姓をすべて大文字とする（YAMADA Haruo），姓と名の間にコンマを打つ（Yamada,Haruo）などの方法で，「姓－名」の構造を示すことも考えられよう。
今後，官公庁や報道機関等において，日本人の姓名をローマ字で表記する場合，並びに学校教育における英語等の指導においても，以上の趣旨が生かされることを希望する。

In line with this policy, around 2002, almost all school education in Japan was changed to writing the family name first.

Next, there are announcements of cabinet decisions issued by the Prime Minister's Office of the Japanese government.
https://www.kantei.go.jp/jp/singi/seimei_romaji/index.html

1. Regarding the romanization of Japanese names in official documents prepared by each government agency, the order of "surname - given name" will be used unless there is a problem.
2 This applies to the following official documents prepared by each ministry or agency. However, if there is a special practice, such as a format specified by an international organization, etc., it is not necessary to follow this.
(1) Websites and social media in foreign languages ​​(English, etc.) owned by each administrative agency
(2) Documents in foreign languages ​​(English, etc.) (bilateral and multilateral joint statements, white papers, basic plans, strategies, reports)
(3) Lists, nameplates, etc. at conferences (public) hosted by Japan and each administrative agency
(4) Documents in foreign languages ​​(English, etc.) (letters, documents explaining our position to international organizations and other countries, and other documents that require approval by original document)
(5) Administrative documents in foreign languages ​​(English, etc.)
(6) English and French translations of letters of credentials and letters of dismissal of our ambassadors
(7) English and French translations of signature sections in exchanges of notes, etc., and letters of attorney of authority to sign international agreements
3 When writing the names of Japanese people in Roman letters in official documents prepared by each ministry and agency, if it is necessary to clearly distinguish between the family name and given name, the family name will be written in all capital letters (YAMADA Haruo) and the structure "family name-given name" will be shown.
4 Local governments, related organizations, and the private sector are requested to take care to use the order "family name - given name" when writing the romanized names of Japanese people, whenever possible.
5 The above contents shall be implemented from January 1, 2020. However, if the measures can be taken by each government agency, they can be implemented before the implementation date.

１ 各府省庁が作成する公用文等における日本人の姓名のローマ字表記については，差し支えのない限り「姓―名」の順を用いることとする。
２ 各府省庁が作成する公用文等のうち，次のものを対象とする。なお，国際機関等により指定された様式があるなど，特段の慣行がある場合は，これによらなくてもよい。
（１）各行政機関が保有する外国語（英語等）のウェブサイト，ソーシャルメディア
（２）外国語（英語等）で発信する文書（二国間・多数国間の共同声明等，白書，基本計画，戦略，答申）
（３）我が国及び各行政機関が主催する会議（公開）における名簿，ネームプレート等
（４）外国語（英語等）の文書（��簡，国際機関・相手国などに対し我が方立場を説明する資料，その他の原議書による決裁を要する文書）
（５）外国語（英語等）による行政資料等
（６）我が方大使の信任状・解任状の英仏語訳
（７）交換公文等の署名欄，国際約束の署名権限委任状の英仏語訳
３ 各府省庁が作成する公用文等において日本人の姓名をローマ字表記する際に，姓と名を明確に区別させる必要がある場合には，姓を全て大文字とし（YAMADA Haruo），「姓―名」の構造を示すこととする。
４ 地方公共団体，関係機関等，民間に対しては，日本人の姓名のローマ字表記については，差し支えのない限り「姓―名」の順を用いるよう，配慮を要請するものとする。
５ 上記の内容は，令和２年１月１日から実施するものとする。ただし，各府省庁において対応可能なものについては，実施日前から実施することができる。

In accordance with this, from January 1, 2020, official documents produced by the Japanese government have generally been changed to list the surname first.

https://www.jice.org/en/info/2020/01/family-name-first-order-on-official-documents-starting-from-january-2020.html
https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASMBT3JB0MBTUCVL006.html
https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXMZO49492880W9A900C1CR8000/
https://www.jiji.com/jc/graphics?p=ve_soc_general20190723j-02-w600

Now, all major things like schooling, government documents, etc. are surname first, given name second, including passports.
Some people write their surname last, instead of writing it first, as was traditionally done, and there are several possible reasons for this.

1. They were taught at school to write their surname last, and are unaware that this has changed.
2. Westerners have always thought that Japanese people write their surname after their given name, and many Westerners are unaware of this change. Furthermore, this method is unfamiliar in the West. Therefore, they use the traditional method of writing surname last.
3.It will be difficult for people who have been doing business in the past to write their last name in the traditional manner, to change their name now.

According to Wikipedia's current rules, the format used in English encyclopedias is ranked higher. However, I doubt that those in charge of creating English encyclopedias will take Japan's circumstances into account. They will likely follow the current custom and list the surname last. Despite the fact that more and more people are writing their last name first, and more and more documents are written with their last name written first.
If this happens, the following situation will occur.

大谷翔平←Japanese kanji.
Shohei Ohtani←Westerners rewrite it this way out of custom, but to Japanese people it is an old way of writing. A Japanese person might write it with Westerners in mind.
OHTANI Shohei←Name formats that Japanese people may write. Japanese official documents are written in this format.
Ohtani Shohei←Name formats that Japanese people may write.
Ohtani,Shohei←Name formats that Japanese people may write.

The fact that the writing method is not completely fixed is very troubling.
A further problem is that even though the signatures written by Japanese people themselves, Japanese dictionaries, and Japanese official documents are all the same, only the English dictionary is written in a different way due to the publisher's convenience, and articles are created accordingly. There may be some cases. Is this appropriate?
We also need to consider the situation where only some Western publishers respond to the new system, while the majority write the surname last. Let's consider the situation where Company A writes the surname last, Company B writes the surname last, Company C writes the surname first, and American government documents write the surname first, just like Japanese official documents. Only a small number of publishers and the American government write the surname first. Since they are a minority, the question arises as to whether we should ignore them and continue to create articles that write the surname last.

Just like Chinese and Koreans, Japanese people should seriously consider whether they should put their surname first.
However, it would be too much work to change all the articles. For articles you will be creating or editing in the future, why not change to the Japanese government's official document format, where the last name is written in all capital letters? If the first letter is capitalized and the rest are lowercase, readers can decide that it is the old style. 140.227.46.9 (talk) 06:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

What's important about this proposal to write Japanese surnames first or later is that the Japanese government has decided that surnames should be written first, something that affects not only wikipedia, but also wikidata.

The discussion that has taken place several times so far has centered on what should be done since no clear criteria exist. This time, clear criteria do exist. However, the English-speaking public gives precedence to convention and does not follow the Japanese government's standards in various documents, such as dictionaries.

The Japanese government is not enforcing them on the private sector at this stage. In some cases, system modifications will have to be made. This would require a great deal of effort on the part of private companies.

However, there is a possibility that it will be upgraded to a recommendation in the future, and there will be strong calls for changes, and that the US and other countries' governments will issue notices to follow the Japanese government's standards. Fundamentally speaking, it is a question of whether to give priority to the descriptions in dictionaries written by publishers who follow convention and are unaware of changes in the situation, or to descriptions based on standards created by the Japanese government. Tanukisann (talk) 11:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for understanding.

When Japan didn't have clear rules and it was customary to put the surname in the front, there was no problem whether you put the surname in the front or the back in an English dictionary. But even after the rules were decided in Japan and it was decided to put the surname at the front, English dictionaries continued to put it at the back. Obviously, this is wrong, but what should we do in this case?

Of course, I don't think that people who are active and famous under a name with the surname at the back absolutely have to change it right away. That's because it will be treated as a common name. If for some reason it becomes necessary to change the surname to the front on all wikipedia pages, or if the owner of the name begins to use the name with the surname in front of it, you should change it. 140.227.46.9 (talk) 07:49, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I strongly disagree with numbers 3 and 4. Romanizing the Latin text into Japanese seems unnecessary as well as redundant. Why? ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 23:05, 23 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

If referring to historical figures repeatedly, should the format be their surname or given name? That is, if a name is in [surname] [given name] format, should i say, "[Surname] did xyz", or [Given name] did xyz"? Saturniapavonia (talk) 21:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Normally surname, but it depends on the context. Is there any particular case you are wondering about? Dekimasuよ! 11:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply