Talk:Cetshwayo

Is Cetshwayo standard Zulu orthography? I wanted to add the pronunciation -- plain dental click? kwami (talk) 22:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it's standard isiZulu, and yes, that's a dental click. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 06:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Thank you. Oh, second problem: is Zulu tsh ambiguous the way it is in Xhosa (/tsʰ/, /tʃ/, or /tʃʰ/), or can it only be /tʃ/? kwami (talk) 07:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

A recent (early 1800s) sound shift in isiZulu converted all instances of /ch/ to /sh/, and thus, unlike isiXhosa, tsh is always pronounced /c'/ and never /ch/ (I'm too lazy to do this in IPA) in standard isiZulu (it's not inconceivable that some dialect somewhere still has remnants of /ch/). This sound shift was incomplete when isiNdebele branched off from isiZulu, thus you find many words where /ch/ in one corresponds to /sh/ in the other, and the same is true of isiXhosa (which did not branch off from isiZulu; cf. eg. the surnames Tshabalala/Shabalala, Tshabangu/Shabangu, etc, differing between isiXhosa/isiZulu). Cf. also the title of the acclaimed Sesotho novel Chaka.

IsiXhosa aspirated /tsh/, just like plain (ejective) /ts'/, would either come from the Khoisan or Sotho-Tswana languages (in Nguni /ts'/ is only found as the nasally permuted version of /s/, ie. in /nts'/, written ns in isiZulu and nts in isiXhosa).

Also remember that the w is not a semi-vowel, but is instead indicative of labialisation (see Sesotho phonology for further discussion).

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 09:25, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Okay, gave it a shot. Please correct if need be. Also, I didn't know what to do with tone-that should be there, of course. kwami (talk) 09:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

I can't see the IPA properly on my phone (which is what I'm using now), but it looks problematic in a few ways.

Firstly, the name starts with a k followed by what appears to be a block on my phone. I'll assume the block is a click. In transcribing clicks, especially those of Kintu languages, the k' accompaniment is assumed and is thus usually not marked. If you do choose to explicitely show the accompaniment, then the standard is to show it after the click symbol (you place it before if it's part of a consonant cluster).

Do the apostrophes indicate ejective consonants? If so, what is that block after the mp (which is also ejective)? If they're stress then remember that main stress almost always falls on the penultimate syllable.

Regarding tone, I've always heard the name pronounced with a single high tone on the first syllable, but I've never heard the surname pronounced before.

If you could give me a list of the special symbols in your IPA and the sounds they represent below, then I could probably make the IPA transcription (although blind, so I need you to be sure of the symbols you give me).

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 10:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Okay, corrected the second ejective. (I'd had it aspirate.) [k!] and [!k] are equivalent; the problem with the latter is that the pipe gets confused with the brackets. Currently it's [k|étšw'ajo k'amp'ande]. kwami (talk) 17:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

Okay. Well, I would prefer it if the click did not explicitely specify the plain velar accompaniment, because that's not usually done outside of Khoisan.

The ka- in the surname means "son of", and would, like other possessive concords, be high toned.

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 19:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Reply

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