Talk:Benshengren

I think the following footnotes are dubious and they don't define things:-

• http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/brief/info04_16.html

"...“provincial heritage problem” 省籍問題, that is, tensions between native Taiwanese and mainlanders".

That doesn't define "native Taiwanese". It just says there is a tension between two groups of people due to provincial heritage.

• http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/rights/politics_05.htm

"...Thousands of native Taiwanese and mainland Chinese immigrants reportedly were killed in clashes between civilians and government troops and ensuing crackdowns. "

"native Taiwanese and mainland China immigrants, whom the natives associated with the ruling class."

Same problem. Two groups of people with no definition.

• http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/china/china-taiwan.html

"During the 1960s some native Taiwanese, upset by the rule of the mainland minority, began to call for independence from China."

No definition.

• http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1048580.ece

"About 70 per cent of the island’s population is native Taiwanese, while the rest are Han Chinese whose families arrived from the mainland after the Kuomintang (KMT) under Chiang Kai-shek lost a civil war against Mao’s Communists in 1949."

"President Chen’s Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), which has its roots in the predominantly native Taiwanese south of the island"

No definition again. If any definition is implied, the definition is more like Han Chinese without the Aborigines. It is common knowledge that the DPP has extremely poor support amongst the Aborigines.

• http://www.atimes.com/atimes/china/jc21ad01.html

"Therefore, the DPP is considered a party which represents the interests of native Taiwanese, and the KMT representing the interests of the immigrants. It used to be that a family of native Taiwanese would vote for DPP and a family of immigrants would support KMT."

No definition. If any definition is implied, the definition doesn't include Aborigines, again due to DDP's poor support amongst them.

As such, I will put a dubious tag on these footnotes so we can discuss before a more precise definition is found.--pyl (talk) 06:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Some of the references define "native Taiwanese" implicitly rather than explicitly. If you can find reliable sources defining "native Taiwanese", then please do so. Many of the definitions set the "mainlanders" against the "native Taiwanese", implying as you have suggested that the "native Taiwanese" are the people you have attempted to call the "non-mainlanders".

I appreciate that some of the references can implicitly define the term and I have responded to that possibility already above. Please read it more carefully.

Any assertion for implicit definition is subject to a problem. The articles only talk about two groups of people having problems: the fact that black people and white people have problems doesn't mean the problem also affects Asians.

I never wanted to use "native Taiwanese" at first place, as you are well aware. There are no reliable sources for definition without being in conflict with each other. "Native Taiwanese" is a quick and dirty made up term without paying due attention to the Taiwanese situation. I maintain that we need to be more precise with wording and we should avoid using this term altogether, if possible.

Use "non-mainlanders". "Non-mainlanders" clearly include everyone other than mainlanders.

On a related note, if "native Taiwanese" can no longer be used because it can be mis-interpreted, we need to ditch the "mainlander" term and replace it with something else like "mainland Chinese" because it is unclear what "mainland" is being described. Readin (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I don't mind ditching it as well. That term is also ambiguous. When I talked to people and use that word, they asked me if I was referring to the people who are *currently* on mainland China. That's obviously not the intended meaning of "mainlanders" in Taiwan. I objected to the change from mainlanders to mainland Chinese on the "Republic of China" page because "mainland Chinese" really doesn't draw any distinctions between the people who are and who are not currently on mainland China. At least the term "mainlander" does that even though on the face of the term, it doesn't.

"bengshenren" and "waishenren" are the correct terms - by drawing distinctions based on residential status of provinces, not by origins of the people. I maintained all the way anyway that we shouldn't use "native Taiwanese" or "mainlanders". They don't properly state what these two Chinese terms mean. --pyl (talk) 14:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Given that no reasons have been being given as to why these disputed footnotes should remain, I will now proceed to remove the disputed footnotes. If anyone believes that the footnotes should be restored, please discuss here before restoring them, per Wikipedia policy.

As a result of the removal of the footnotes, no sources are given for the claim that "native Taiwanese" means the "people who migrated to Taiwan prior to the 1945 takeover by the Republic of China from Japanese rule". At this stage, I will leave the dubious tag alone, and if no reliable sources are given by 9 October 2008 (UTC), I will remove the claim altogether.--pyl (talk) 10:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I was born in Taipei, Im the son of migrants-KMT refugees that came to Taiwan at the end of the civil war. Care to explain how that makes me a non-native??

bollocks, really —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.19.214.164 (talk) 16:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

Should this be a disambig or not? This is something that merits a proper discussion. I.e. should this term have its own article, with sections on different groups called so, or be just a disambig? The term is certainly used in Google Books enough to warrant notability, IMHO. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:01, 19 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

Almost all of those Gbooks results are uses, not mentions; i.e., no basis for a non-SYNTH article. The concept of "native Taiwanese" doesn't have a clear mapping to any Chinese term. The article Taiwanese people^✝ already has an adequate introduction to some of the problems with terminology. Taiwan specialists tend not to use this English term "native Taiwanese", because it's a politically loaded word relating to the (all, in some sense valid but) conflicting claims of Taiwanese aboriginies, Hoklo nationalists, and Waishengren's children to nativity.

✝oblig. The term "Taiwanese people" itself is problematic, rabble rabble. Its promotion is related to the phenomenon of certain people on Wikipedia being allergic to the idea of a "Chinese people" or a "Chinese language" (as in, a single language with dialects), even going so far as to create articles like Gan people which predate any real-life ethnogenesis. Shrigley (talk) 01:07, 20 October 2015 (UTC)Reply